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Overtakes in wet races #2

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medal 5000
4 years 14 days ago
I try it again, one year later.

Hi! All of us must have been frustrated at least once for seeing the grid makes the 80-90% of the final result in a wet race. Expecially for the first row.
Development is important, grid have to be important, but what I do not understand is why as you reach 1.5s - 2.0s (depending on the circuit) from the leader or from who has free track in general, he becomes completely unapproachable. The chance to get closer finishes there, the chance of overtaking doesn't exist at all.
What's the reason? The visibility? The water between two cars? I remember in Formula 1 a lot of races with overtakes where drivers really make the difference though.

Thank you!
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medal 4994 Moderator
4 years 14 days ago (Last edited by Frank Thomas 4 years 14 days ago)
It's the effect of so called dirty air, turbulences from the car ahead rendering the own aerodynamics less effective, that's causing it. It is present in dry races as well but usually DRS counters it by bunching up the field again (as at first only the leading car is free of it as from the 2nd car on all cars behind it suffer from it similarily and thus are still able to go similar pace, bare differences in car and weight). With the exception of tracks where it is strong enough to open up more than a second in a single lap and DRS is too weak to regain enough time. In iGP it's Monaco, which is the reason it always feels like a rain race there.

F1 usually suffers from it as well. But in rain races they often abandon the window of their cars fine tuned aerodynamics a bit by running more old school brute wing downforce which is less affected by dirty air while increasing air resistance which in turn increases the value of slip stream. That and (for the bigger part) the more difficult track and grip conditions opens up more overtaking chances there.

That's for the reasons, now the suggestion part. I'd suggest to give the wing value above a certain value, covering most tracks dry setup, the ability to reduce the effect of dirty air. This would reduce it automatically in rain races due to the higher ideal setup, even more so in thunderstorm conditions, but also slightly on extreme tracks like Monaco. If balanced well managers could even decide to exchange a bit of lap performance against better overtaking ability by setting wings above the ideal setup.
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medal 5000
4 years 14 days ago (Last edited by Gian Michele Pisanu 4 years 14 days ago)
I think that although the idea of "dirty air" wants to reflect realism, in the game it does very little, given that in the wet race - if not with the kers and if not in the random start - no overtaking occurs. It will not overtake even if you are much faster. This makes wet races extremely boring, especially those where you are forced to play with almost constant push. Maybe some wet races are a little more fun, like China, Belgium, but only at certain temperatures and in any case there is never any natural overtaking. With the track free you could approach and overtake with the kers, but you can not get closer to more than 1.5 - 1.0 seconds, so it is enough that your opponent has a quantity of kers, even lower enough, to allow those in front to stay in front , although slower.

The suggestion I would like to give is to eliminate, if possible, the "dirty air" differences that exist between dry and wet, because on dry you can overcome if you are faster, on wet you don't.

In my league I put this poll to the vote a few days ago, I didn't think it could have much credit. The result in my opinion is indicative: 63% of managers prefer not to play that day and not run the race, rather than running it in the wet.

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medal 6272 Super Mod
4 years 14 days ago
I can't understand why Frank's post can have 3 downvotes.


Are people afraid of changing? He's only giving an idea which ends stating it very clearly:
Frank
If balanced well managers could even decide to exchange a bit of lap performance against better overtaking ability by setting wings above the ideal setup.

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medal 4994 Moderator
4 years 14 days ago (Last edited by Frank Thomas 4 years 14 days ago)
Edit: I think it's regarded as not enough, partially at least /Edit

@Gian Michele: There are no differences in strength of dirty air between dry and rain, that's other factors at work, and completely removing dirty air isn't the way to go, it would turn rain races into a mere matter of having the fastest car and setting the strategy with theoretical lowest race time disregarding any considerations of traffic and the race unfolding. In most cases it's already that way in rain as Qualification already orders the cars pretty much according to their base performance, no need to remove the last traces of strategy tactics remaining. A bit of blocking has to remain to enable a match of the ability to defend against attack between the (currently) slower and faster car and not turning opponents into mere shadows on the track to be passed without resistance. 
But currently the effect is too strong in rain as even with a lot of speed advantage it's impossible to attack no matter what you do with the exception of using a lot of boost just to bridge the gap.
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medal 5000
4 years 14 days ago
I think that all opinions are important when improvement is proposed, especially if expressed with this clarity that you have had. Frank's idea is very interesting. I proposed another one just because I think it's easier (maybe) to apply. I would not like to completely remove the dirty air from wet races (for the same reasons that Frank explains), I would like it to have the same impact as it has in dry races, so that it is more realistic and improves the gaming experience of all .

The simplest of all the ideas, the only one I can do, will be to postpone the races in which I will be sure of a wet race, but it is certainly not the best I would have liked, and I am sorry to do it despite the survey.
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medal 5000
4 years 14 days ago
all nice ideas but in my opinion a little too complicated for developers to do, especially in this period, however there would be simple things to do that would perhaps improve the situation. 
1 try to insert the drs even in wet races .... I don't know if this could help overtaking or bring cars closer. 
2. make the wet tires less durable,lead to different strategies even in the rain. maybe they are stupid but simple things to do and try. 
sorry my english.
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medal 5000
4 years 14 days ago
Dome, IGP tries to simulate real F1 so DRS rules works in the same way on both.

But if IGP do try DRS on wet races, then braking would be a problem because of the grip levels being a lot lower then in dry condition and could bring the SC out for crashs, if it really exists.

I would like to see yours second point in IGP despite in F1 they do last a lot, especially in cold races.
This togheter with changes in how the wet tires react to Push Levels would make it a bit more interesting and really nice for strategy and make other managers attend to the race so they can have some control over the final result, as Gian said.
Gian
It will not overtake even if you are much faster. This makes wet races extremely boring, especially those where you are forced to play with almost constant push.


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medal 6272 Super Mod
4 years 14 days ago
The idea of bringing back DRS in wet races isn't new -- https://igpmanager.com/forum-thread/18466

It was rejected.
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medal 5222
4 years 13 days ago (Last edited by ʟ ᠎ 4 years 13 days ago)
Ruan
Dome, IGP tries to simulate real F1 so DRS rules works in the same way on both.



This game has nothing to do with real F1. Absolutely nothing. Just consider the fact that in iGP Manager, tyres overheat on the straights and cool down in the corners. In real life, so in F1, it's completely opposite. 
DRS in this game is way too powerful and not realistic at all. Also, kers works in a way that has nothing to do with the Physics rules. Full kersing laps really are out of the real World.

EDIT @ Lai Yong Liang

"Besides, wet race can't really examine your managerial skills because the whole race doesn't have any DRS."

I'm very curious to know how on Earth managerial skills can be valued thru the DRS thing. 
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medal 5001 Super Mod
4 years 13 days ago
Off topic posts have been deleted.
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medal 5000
4 years 13 days ago
returning to serious things and leaving these useless things alone .... okay the DRS cannot be inserted for various reasons, even if I don't agree with them ..... but could increasing the wear of the tires work? maybe it would bring different strategies .....
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medal 4994 Moderator
4 years 13 days ago
No, it would decrease the numbers of strategies by setting the limit at tyre wear instead at max sensible fuel weight. Because, while fuel weight allows a speed increase by reducing the stint length inside its useful range enabling possible strategy variance, making tyre wear the upper limit would both remove longer stint strategies and often shorter ones as the gap between that new limit and the shorter stints is not enough to compensate pitstops by fuel weight alone and rain means being stuck at one compound.
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medal 5000
4 years 13 days ago
if we want to suggest something to do in a short time it must be a simple thing to do, especially in this period. the tips on how to modify the wing are excellent but complicated at the moment to do so you can't do it now ..... you have to suggest something simple and effective.
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medal 4994 Moderator
4 years 12 days ago
If only suggesting something easy to be done and simple would be, for me, easily be done and simple I did it for sure. Especially since just turning rain races into more of the same dry ones with some graphic flair, less tyre choice and different setup or changes likely to just making matters worse won't do in my opinion.
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medal 5000
4 years 6 days ago (Last edited by Chris Py 4 years 6 days ago)
I like how the dirty air works in the rain (on most tracks). I think it is still very much strategy in how much fuel you put in your car and how much you have to boost to stay in front. 
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medal 4933 Community Manager
4 years 6 days ago
Hello,

Offtopic won’t be tolerated and insults even less. Actions will be taken shortly.
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