Teo Fabulous medal 5000 10 years 182 days ago
I've been a subscriber to iGP for two years. In one week my subscription will lapse, and if I'm going to renew, I'm going to need a few answers.
First of all, what's the state of this game? Is it going to be maintaining the status quo for the foreseeable future? A few months ago we had a lot of enthusiasm over the direction this was going, with proposed new features and a better design system to replace the "one on/one off" rut that we find ourselves in from season to season. We had Steve Myers from iRacing injecting some marketing and promotion, and it looked like things were going to get good.
Now there's basically zilch.
Our league has been one of the top leagues on the service since 2012 and we are barely able to keep anyone around anymore. People are losing interest, which is understandable considering how much the annual subscription fee is for a product that seems to be mired in stasis.
I've given iGP the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but if I'm going to invest my money in renewing my subscription, I'm going to need a bit more information about the status of the game and, really, the company. Otherwise, I may need to reinvest my money in something else... I've heard this "Netflix" thing is pretty popular.
Teo Fabulous medal 5000 10 years 180 days ago
Eloquent silence.
Tony Mays medal 5000 10 years 179 days ago
Totally agree Tony , My subscription expires in August and if there is no significant change by then I'm finished too. This game had so much promise :(
Sonny Philips medal 5000 10 years 179 days ago
Most won't agree to this statement.. but they need to stop the game as it is.. All development and so on and scrap Java !!!! They need to build the game from scratch on a Flash base system.
Every Java update causes issues.. Why this is, isvery simple. It's OLD HAT CRAP !!! The last updte from Java has still not been fixed and we have gone backwards (Which is impressive for a game that is stagnant for 99% of the year.)
Sorry but that is the truth and needs to be done soner rather than later.
DJ Morris medal 5000 10 years 179 days ago
I agree the games getting a bit repetitive but in my league the fun and excitement is produced by the people in it, not any new features that are introduced.
I am going to stay on here until codemasters start to put a manager mode into thier f1 games with the same features of improving a team as on here but taking some areas a bit further and also being able to see all P,Q AND Races in 3D. I don't imagine that happening any time soon though so I guess I'll have to remain hooked to igp for a little bit longer ;)
Teo Fabulous medal 5000 10 years 179 days ago
It's not even that I'm giving an ultimatum or that I'm trying to tell them how to fix their game or anything. It's that I can't spend what is really a LOT of money if nobody can be bothered to keep me in the loop.
Jack Basford medal 5302 CEO & CTO 10 years 179 days ago
Whether this is what you want to hear is beside the point, I think you want the truth and that's what I will give you. I didn't feel like engaging in this because I've said this before in some ways, and the situation is still ongoing.
iGP has never raised enough money to keep a team of people around. The rate of development is absolutely not a choice, attitude or conscious decision. We simply don't have the resources. Unlike many other games, this was not started by a medium sized or large company with any investment capital or resources to throw at it. It was created by me and a friend, in our bedrooms, from nothing but our own time, energy and money. It's a 100% indie game with no commercial backing. Most indie developers that get featured on Steam barely break even on the time they put in to their games, many don't. We've discovered how tough it is for an indie developer to make it without funding, the hard way.
There are bigger reasons for our struggle than iGP out pricing itself as a couple of posters have suggested. Things were going just fine, until we hit some technical limitations a while back. That set us back a long way and stunted growth. We tried to tackle this while still doing creative work for a while, but it resulted in the stability of the service struggling to keep up with demand.
To boot, the only people that could remove the series of highly technical limitations left iGP, due to the lack of funds shortly after. Until those technical problems are resolved it's hard to put as much energy as we'd like in to other projects. This technical work can often be more time consuming than something that adds a new feature or widget to the game, and it's often taken for granted. But I'm sure if you have been here long enough, you've seen quite a substantial improvement in the reliability of the service, because we are making big progress on that front, but there is still more to do. We don't just care about what features things have, but that they work, reliably, 24/7. There is no point in building anything on a shaky foundation. It has never been "stagnant", as evidenced by such improvements in the service.
All of this has required bringing in new people and ensure they are trained up adequately as replacements, and to not take a salary myself for many months to ensure they get paid during that training period. Do I think that's acceptable or what you want to hear? No. But I've heard people often wrongly assume that there are people with healthy salaries behind iGP not taking their jobs seriously. That could not be further from the truth. We do this because we care. It's essentially voluntary work for myself and others that doesn't pay a fair wage (or any wage at times).
That's not something you're ever going to hear from the big companies out there. They do these kinds of projects for money alone, and if iGP was their product, they would have ditched it long ago as a waste of time on that basis. There is a reason companies like Codemasters are avoiding this area of the market. They dipped their toes in the water with F1 Online and ran a mile, seeing no sustainable business model.
I see a market big enough for this to be sustainable eventually, but right now it's a hard slog to get it off the ground. All of your feedback is welcome and justified, even the constructive and no so constructive stuff. When it comes to the pace of adding new widgets though, I don't have a card up my sleeve for you, this is the best we can do right now with what is at our disposal. I've considered doing a kickstarter or something to get the injection of capital we need, but don't know if there is enough support out there for it, especially not when our biggest fans (you guys) read something like this. But I hope if it shows you anything, it's that we're not bad people, and you can trust that we have the same goals as you, to have a great game. That's the truth.
Anticipating the inevitable replies that say what we should be doing, only we have the data. We are doing the right thing in the long run, and shouldn't go for a nice short-term situation that hampers the long-term potential of iGP. There is process that has been set in motion that is already producing results. I'd rather not make flashy promises right now, those will come later once those plans gain some momentum.
Andrew Hurn medal 5000 10 years 179 days ago
I am not entirely sure what it is that you are looking for here Tony.
Is it likely that the team are sitting around waiting for the cheques to rock up?
Of course not.
Jack is being modest above. He is the driving force.
The reality is that under his guidance & determination, the team are working hard to fix things, make improvements, designing new features, addressing things which break in the back office systems & dealing with issues that are hidden from view; for example a considerable amount of work went on around the heartbleed issue. Perhaps there isn't enough made about such things. I know that some games go into detail about this, but the team is very small. As things progress, a more structured communication plan can be implemented.
There are also some volunteers who for example look after the helpdesk, thank you Aaron. This work goes on continuously, but perhaps is not viewed as progress. It certainly helps a lot of players & identifies issues.
.
The team recognise that things are not moving forward quickly enough for the users; they are not moving forward quickly enough for them too, but they are doing all they can. They are not complacent or idle; they are filled with enthusiasm & a desire to make this game the best it can be.
Tony Mays medal 5000 10 years 179 days ago
The reason people are leaving or thinking of leaving is the simple lack of communication from the developers , If you offered up this information volutarily rather than wait for disgruntled users to kick up a fuss then you might still have had a big dedicated group of IGP players still here.
I'm sorry guy's but I've supported this game for near on a couple of years now and not willing to put in anymore time effort and money to get not much back in return.
I understand that it can't be easy running this and i'm sure we don't the understand half of the problems you guy's come up against , But for me a simple explanation and being kept in the loop is worth so much more.
I appreciate all the time and effort you have put in this game , But the last couple of months have been an absolute chore and my patience has run out.
Thanks again
Jack Basford medal 5302 CEO & CTO 10 years 179 days ago
"Tony
I understand that it can't be easy running this and i'm sure we don't the understand half of the problems you guy's come up against , But for me a simple explanation and being kept in the loop is worth so much more.
The last announcement was in the middle of April, the one before that at the end of February. There hasn't been one in May yet, but probably will be in the next week. I would like to know more about your decision so that we can learn from it. How often would updates/blogs be reassuring to you? And would another blog or two in this period really have made any difference? Would it have reassured you to know about our situation, or would it have raised more questions than it answered?
If it's just that we haven't added enough new features or content, unfortunately our hands have really been tied on that one. Those of us that are here are the ones trying to fix that for you, and most of us aren't even paid for it. A bigger company might have produced lots of updates and blogs quickly, but it would have disappeared just as quickly. I'd like to do whatever we can to improve things and show you that we are using all the resources available to us. If that means writing more often, then we'll have to do that. Perhaps we should inject more of the "story" behind iGP (even if it does come across as slightly unprofessional) if it helps clear up these misconceptions. We are taking this seriously.
At this stage I think it's more important that we've ensured that iGP is still here, it has survived the worst, and it's stable. We kept the turmoil out of the public arena and focused on rolling out updates when we could to you instead, such as the tyre compounds which should arrive any time now. Actually, it was just when we were able to start producing updates again that we were hit by those Java updates and the heartbleed stuff, which stopped us from being able to move on as we would have liked initially.
Paul Smith medal 5000 10 years 178 days ago
Here's my 2 cents,
I've been involved in several projects which are run by a small team who have a vision and try their best to make improvements and provide a product for others to use. This thread sounds exactly like what has happened in the past. You will always get people looking for excuses for not paying for something that they have previously paid for. They then are vocal about this "fact" and then others sound out in agreement.
My view of this game is that it is a good game that's run by a dedicated team of people who are working on an incredibly small budget when compared to medium and large businesses. Yes there is always room for improvement in the game, but it's knowing how to prioritise issues and improvements. You can use F1 as an example. Teams like Red Bull and McLaren are behind Mercades and will throw a ton of money to try and gain a tenth of a second. Whereas a team like Marussia have a small budget and are trying to gain 3/4's of a second on Sauber to move closer to points. Marussia have to look at their budget and see what will give them the greatest gain.
A monthly update would be appropriate i feel for communication from the developers, even if it's just to let us know about any issues that they've had to address that month. As for raising funds for the site it would be great if there was a way of getting more sponsors involved to keep a steady revenue stream coming in. Kickstarter projects can work and it would be interesting to see what incentives would be offered to encourage people to pay into that.
So keep up the hard work, i enjoy the product as does the people in my league. Lets work together and help this game grow and become the great game that we all know it can be.
I now await the abuse and unconstructive comments to head my way now.
Sonny Philips medal 5000 10 years 178 days ago
Jack.. You have missed the point to be 100% honest.
It's not about anything else but openess and honesty and the issue has come up several times over the years and then you post an open post like this. When this is all that is needed in the 1st place but on a monthly basis.. Even if it's a Ghost writer that you pass notes to and they fill in the blanks and produce a blog.
I have the urine extracted from me every time I am on TeamSpeak and playing iGP.. "What are you playing? Ohh not iGP. I thought you was quitting that over a year ago?"
and like I tell them.. It's the people I am racing with, the potential of the game and I WANT to help this game grow to be the superb game it could be.
but sitting there for nearly 2 hrs and then getting screwed out of wins / podiums / points over basic things that have never been adressed from day 1 is making it so hard to defend this game.
Pit bugs, Pole v's 2nd in to T1 on some tracks, tyres, Monaco & Monza... and the other 101 bugs that need sorting before any other development goes ahead.
As for Kickstarter.. Don't you dare think it's for small time devs.. I play several games that have come through Kickstarter.
Guns of Icarus - E3 game of the year and a shead load of other awards.
Next Car Game - They went to 100's of backers trying to get the game going... All they got back was "This game has no market, the genre is over populated." and they ended up on Kickstarter asking for $300.000.. Well they have to stop the donate button after they had over $600.000. Yep. no one wants that game.. derp.
There is a game on there currently asking for money.. They are over 900% abover what they asked for and have recieved over $8 million.
Kickstarted could be a great way of funding BUT you have to change things around. Seriously.
You need to make proper subscription packages to offer the people willing to donate.
The current subscription package is a HUGE problem for this game.. It offers very little incentive once you are a few months in to the game.
You need to change it around and offer packages that last for 7 days, so subscription members don't have to change everything daily and eliminate potential human errors like "forgetting to change design parts."
Free 2 Play need to have the same results as subscribers BUT the main difference is that the F2P members have to work 4 times harder to get the results..
Training - F2P need to log on each day to train their drivers - Subscribers can make a 7 day training plan.
Design - F2P need to log in each day to change the parts they want for the next day - Again Subscribers can have an Auto change system where they get the parts in order they want for 7 days.
This is how you need to look at iGP If you think about Kickstarter (which I think is the best way.)
Then you seriously need to sit down with the COMMUNITY (Not 1 or 2 long servers.) and go through the options of how to put a package together that people will invest in.
Jack Basford medal 5302 CEO & CTO 10 years 178 days ago (edited 10 years 178 days ago)
Thanks for the feedback. There was a lot of good stuff in there, and it will be taken onboard.
When it comes to things needing to change, there has always been a missing piece from that picture, because again it refers to it as if it were a choice. The bugs/faults that have all been pointed out all reside in one area of the game. I already alluded to the fact that we lost people, and it just so happened it was the people responsible for that area of the game. It took a long time to find and train replacements, probably a year was involved in that process alone. The momentum wouldn't have shifted by posting more blogs or making "decisions", because there has been nothing to make decisions about. We had all our power over the situation taken away the moment we didn't have a team of people that could update the whole game, only parts of it.
I've been moving things in to place to sort this out, and it has taken much much longer than I would have liked, we're talking a timescale of years rather than months. There were many obstacles put in my way along that journey, but I've persisted through thick and thin to get this back on track. On a shoestring that is all that has been possible until now.
If we had blogged every month about the behind-the-scenes story, it would have read something like this every month: "We still don't have anyone developing the simulator. We still don't have a budget and can't find a replacement developer on a shoestring. Lots of updates are in the pipeline but can't be released until the sim supports them, which can't be done because we don't have a sim developer... In the meantime I've been occupying myself making updates that you won't see for a year until we have a capable sim developer" and so on.
My intention in publishing some of this on the forum now is simply to inform the discussion, not to engage in it as such or in a debate. I can see your faith in iGP has really been tested, which doesn't surprise me, but knowing the full picture, I think it has done very well to get this far. Things are boding well behind the scenes now, we've really increased the stability of the service and we are releasing updates, even if it's every couple of months. That's a rate which will improve, as long as we can stick to our plan and don't get sidetracked.
Teo Fabulous medal 5000 10 years 178 days ago
Thank you, Jack. Your post was all I was looking for. Not promises, not grandiose announcements - just transparency and honesty.
I don't have a problem supporting a game that is developing slowly, even glacially slowly, as long as it is still being actively developed.
I had guessed that there was turnover behind the scenes and your post confirmed it. What I wasn't sure about was whether the people who left were replaced. Thanks for updating me on that.
I still don't know whether I am going to renew my subscription yet. The long and short is that it's a lot of money for me, and I'm not exactly flush with disposable income considering that I am sending a kid to college in a couple of months. Having said that, you've revealed enough that I won't abandon ship altogether.
Jake Goodhall medal 5000 10 years 176 days ago
This is a really interesting thread and I applaud Jack for his honesty.
I want to make a couple of points.
It has been suggested that there should be some sort of regular update which I agree with BUT I know that is easier said than done. As I have been with the game from the start I suggested (to one of the devs - not Jack) that I might do a weekly/monthly update column - but as was pointed out to me, as I have no technical knowledge it would have taken as long for the devs to tell me what to write as it would for them to do it themselves! And they didn't have that kind of time to spare, either way. But it was the correct decision. Jack states that any update post would be saying much the same thing and be more negative than positive. I think the devs see this as a bad thing, but I would assure them that even negative news is better than no news at all. It really is importanrt to just say something no matter how little or how 'useless' it might sound.
I have constantly been upset over the years with some quite unsavoury comments about the game and its developers. If people only knew the time, effort and commitment these guys have put in. Remember the game was on the drawing board for a long time before launch. The potential of this game is enormous. The plans and ideas, the direction the game can go in, the work already done for future expansion, but it is all so much type on a page if sustainable funding cannot be secured. Chasing funding takes time and commitment as well, so where do you put your resourses - into the game of course - hence the lack of funding. It's a no win situation.
Anybody got a couple of million they don't want - :)
Teo Fabulous medal 5000 10 years 176 days ago
I think what scares people sometimes is that the subscription fee is so significant, and when you pair that with three or four weeks of silence from the developers people start thinking "vaporware."
I don't think a blog post is necessary - even a quick post from Jack on the forum every so often saying, "Hey, we had a pretty good race on the beta server and found a tweak or two that might help," would go a long way to settling people down.
Bill Watson medal 5062 10 years 175 days ago
Thanks Jack. I know that probably wasn't easy to share but the turmoil explains a lot coming from someone who is still waiting on the "Q2 patch" of a year ago. I understand the small business issues and the turnover (personnel, not revenue) issues that are faced and the time it takes to get someone up to speed. Keep working on it, do a "Jack's Blog" update maybe rather than a Developers blog for things like this.
Based on this I will renew. I, like Tony, was on the fence. I can spare the subscription fee and want to support the success of IGP.
Luke Edwards medal 5000 10 years 175 days ago (edited 10 years 175 days ago)
Just to add my thoughts as I have not re-subscribed when it expired.
When you buy a game you expect it to be reliable. As a case in point, look at what happened with Battlefield 4 and Sim City upon their release. Massively unstable servers, the 'cloud' not saving games properly etc. People weren't happy and the developers lost a lot of sales at the time because of that.
In my year of subscribing I saw a few changes to tyre wear and supplier attributes and yes, the stability of the game was increased, but the lack of new features added wasn't enough for me to feel that subscribing for another year would bring any guarantee of new features. Tweeks like the ones made come across more as trying to extend the game in its current form rather than looking to progress it.
When you consider games like Minecraft, DayZ, Next Car Game, Assetto Corsa etc. that are proudly in development and will freely admit there are bugs you know what to expect and each one of those would have cost less than one year of subscription here. With those you know that once you purchase the product then any updates and features are going to be included in that initial cost (DLC content excluded) . There could be no updates for those games in 2 years and it would make them an even better value proposition than staying subscribed to iGP if there were no updates here for 2 years.
I'm not saying that the game is funded in the wrong way and I acknowledge that the development team here is on a much smaller scale but hopefully you can understand that without confirmed content updates, the commitment to subscribe without knowing what you are going to get is a sticky situation.
Do you ever phone up for a takeaway and ask them to 'surprise you' with the order. Would you always be happy with what you got or is there the chance that you could be disappointed?
Ignatius B Corleone medal 5000 10 years 175 days ago
After reading all this, I really hope you and the team don't give up on this game Jack.
I think at the heart of this post and any other like it on the forums is a love and enjoyment for this game, otherwise peole would just leave without so much as a wimper.
Yuri Kasdorp medal 5000 10 years 175 days ago
"Sonny
and like I tell them.. It's the people I am racing with, the potential of the game and I WANT to help this game grow to be the superb game it could be.
No you don't, you just say yes I know. After that 1 or 2 guys are saying that you're stupid for still paying for it and laughing at you. That's the point where you tell them you like to chat with others and beat 'everyone' that joins your league haha.
As for me, I love the game. This game brings all the things together I like to see in a manager game, where other games not even come close. It's nicely done but the bugs prevent me from playing it after 1.5 years. I'd do it all over again but after 1.5 years with all the same bugs, and the things that annoy me I'm going to wait untill it's fixed. I think it's the same for a lot of people, and there's a big market for it. I hope you to go a place like kickstarter and it really takes off, you guys and have a proper dev team and make the game reach it's potential!