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Ham v Max Pt. 2

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medal 5000
2 years 197 days ago (Last edited by Nico Katt 2 years 197 days ago)
So, you knew it had to happen, so here it is: Who was at fault for the Turn 1 incident yesterday? IMO, it was a racing incident with both drivers don't leaving enough room (Max in T1, Ham in T2) so it is 60/40 to Max cuz he lead Ham to not be able to leave enough room. Edit: just realised it can be rated the same like the Perez-Stroll thing in the sprint. But that just was something that should not happened, what a weird rule with leaving the outside car enough room but no one cares about it😅
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medal 5000
2 years 197 days ago (Last edited by Patrick Schwarz 2 years 197 days ago)
In my opinion, Verstappen had already earned enough space to drive alongside Hamilton. And that, although Hamilton aggressively after the pit stop simply squeezes in between, remains stubborn and ice cold without flinching Max into the out. Hamilton does not need to be surprised that something like this happens when you remain stubborn as a 7-time world champion and not a bit of consideration. I have looked enough at the camera angles and even if Max could have held back, the fault was in my eyes quite clearly with Hamilton. Because he could have defused the situation quite easily, with a small turn to the right, he had enough space.

But in the end, nothing changes. Both remain in the points where they are and only the constructors have changed, thanks to Bottas.
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medal 5000
2 years 197 days ago
***UPDATE*** Verstappen has been given a 3 place grid penalty for Sochi. Stewards have said that "he was mainly at fault for the crash, therefore resulting in a 5 second time penalty what he can't serve this race. The nearest consequence is a 3 place penalty." Unbelievable.
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medal 5000
2 years 197 days ago
I personally think that the 2nd incident (which resulted in both cars retiring) was caused mostly by Verstappen.

The reasoning being, there was an earlier incident in the race, on lap 1, where going into the 2nd chicane, Max ran Lewis off the track (left literally 0 cm when Lewis was alongside), and a collision was only avoided after Lewis smartly took avoiding action.

The 2nd incident is a repeat of the first incident, with only the cars the other way around. What Lewis should have done, was run Verstappen off the track (like how it was on lap 1) However, by leaving a cars width on the apex of the corner, it gave Verstappen, and some have said on purpose, the chance to take Lewis out.

Only Max will know if it was a deliberate move at the end of the day, and if it was, a 3 place grid drop nowhere near fits the action.
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medal 5000
2 years 197 days ago (Last edited by John Doe 2 years 197 days ago)
How i see racing incidents go under these principalities and i think the stewards also race director personnel also the same:



  1. If A causes collision which eliminates B out of the race while A withstands the occasion and continues the race, then it is A fault. Which applies to the Silverstone incident as mentioned.

  2. If A causes collision which B withstands the occasion and continues the race while A breaks down itself, then nothing to go to the race directions.

  3. If A causes collision with both B and A withstand and continue the race, then there will be investigation of plenty but may likely to be anulled

  4. If A causes collision which eliminates both B and A itself out, the blame likely goes to A but should be handled with considerable punishment

  5. If an unexpected incident happens to eliminates both A and B out, the blame goes to nobody. Likely motorbike crash which takes out another rider



I'm in behalf of Verstappen but i would say the Monza clash was Verstappen fault. It's not too big of a rebuttal if i say Lewis didn't give space which his position is likely the racing line everyone uses to lap around Monza especially the Retifillio chicane. However what i dislike is both of their race are ruined but Max was given a 3 grid slot penalty. Instead the penalty given for the Silverstone incident which Lewis "eliminated" Max out of the race was merely a 10 second time penalty. Lewis who withstands the impact of the collision went on to win the race, slashing 25 points out of 34 of Max's lead. That judgement given by the stewards is completely non-existentially logical to give Max that penalty when both out rather than perhaps on Silverstone should be a 10 second additional race time penalty or maybe 10 point reduction. Ultimately, if it is cruel enough, he should have been black flagged for winning while taking out championship rival of the race...
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medal 5003 Super Mod
2 years 197 days ago (Last edited by Kevin Bissell 2 years 197 days ago)
The stewards apply penalties for incidents, not for the consequences of incidents. So the fact Hamilton continued to run at Silverstone and Verstappen was out of the race is not relevant to the severity of the penalty.

At Silverstone, Lewis was deemed to be predominantly at fault for causing a collision and was in "Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code" and was given the applicable penalty, in this case a 10 second time penalty.

Fast forward to Italy, this time the stewards deemed Max was predominantly at fault for the collision and was in violation of exactly the same rule (Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code).

Therefore they applied a standard penalty. If Max had continued to race I imagine they would have applied the same 10 second penalty that they gave Lewis at Silverstone. But in Italy, because Max was unable to continue to race they couldn't apply a time penalty so it became a three place grid penalty for the next race.

In both cases the driver at fault was given a 2 point penalty on their race license.
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medal 5000
2 years 196 days ago
Kevin
The stewards apply penalties for incidents, not for the consequences of incidents. So the fact Hamilton continued to run at Silverstone and Verstappen was out of the race is not relevant to the severity of the penalty.

At Silverstone, Lewis was deemed to be predominantly at fault for causing a collision and was in "Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code" and was given the applicable penalty, in this case a 10 second time penalty.

Fast forward to Italy, this time the stewards deemed Max was predominantly at fault for the collision and was in violation of exactly the same rule (Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code).

Therefore they applied a standard penalty. If Max had continued to race I imagine they would have applied the same 10 second penalty that they gave Lewis at Silverstone. But in Italy, because Max was unable to continue to race they couldn't apply a time penalty so it became a three place grid penalty for the next race.

In both cases the driver at fault was given a 2 point penalty on their race license.


It does not make sense at all, that when someone would get a 10 second penalty but can't drive further, will get the penalty next race is completly unnecessary. I mean, you could argue if 10 seconds are 3 grids, but hopefully Verstappen can recover, after Hamilton mistake (still my opinion). I'm not Verstappen or Hamilton fan, but I do dislike Hamilton more then any other driver in F1, alone for being such an a*sh*le on track after winning 7 WMs.
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medal 5003 Super Mod
2 years 196 days ago
What I'm saying is that whether or not the penalties make sense they are what they are and the stewards will dish them out according to who they decide is at fault in an incident.

You could argue that it is unfair for Max to have to take an engine penalty and start at the back of the grid when his engine was destroyed as a result of the Silverstone incident which the stewards decided was Lewis's fault.

As for people disliking certain drivers, of course this is their prerogative and is what gives us all something to debate. The stewards on the other hand should be neutral, they should apply the rules fairly and not favour any one team or driver.
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medal 5000
2 years 196 days ago (Last edited by Patrick Schwarz 2 years 196 days ago)
Kevin
What I'm saying is that whether or not the penalties make sense they are what they are and the stewards will dish them out according to who they decide is at fault in an incident.

You could argue that it is unfair for Max to have to take an engine penalty and start at the back of the grid when his engine was destroyed as a result of the Silverstone incident which the stewards decided was Lewis's fault.

As for people disliking certain drivers, of course this is their prerogative and is what gives us all something to debate. The stewards on the other hand should be neutral, they should apply the rules fairly and not favour any one team or driver.


There is nothing to argue about fairness in giving penalties, there you are completly right.

But this accident I really can't understand, how blind someone can be to see, how the situation goes on.
I watched so often the replay until now and can't see how that should be Verstappen fault, but that
shows that not every steward is capable of doing a good job.
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medal 4918 Moderator
2 years 196 days ago
It's Verstappens fault as there is no decent line for two cars, so only three options: Trying to force Hamilton to make way and most likely sacrificing his position due to an unfavourable racing line or, failing that, either going over the curbs with seen consequence or abandon the attempt by taking the exit and cutting the chicane and giving back any advantage after. Verstappen went for it despite being too far back to claim right for option one and chose to risk the curbs not managing to keep control.
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medal 5234
2 years 196 days ago

Patrick
Kevin
What I'm saying is that whether or not the penalties make sense they are what they are and the stewards will dish them out according to who they decide is at fault in an incident.

You could argue that it is unfair for Max to have to take an engine penalty and start at the back of the grid when his engine was destroyed as a result of the Silverstone incident which the stewards decided was Lewis's fault.

As for people disliking certain drivers, of course this is their prerogative and is what gives us all something to debate. The stewards on the other hand should be neutral, they should apply the rules fairly and not favour any one team or driver.


There is nothing to argue about fairness in giving penalties, there you are completly right.

But this accident I really can't understand, how blind someone can be to see, how the situation goes on.
I watched so often the replay until now and can't see how that should be Verstappen fault, but that
shows that not every steward is capable of doing a good job.



Lol so your opinion is meant to be the 100% accurate point of view?

Just the way you think the stewards are wrong is also the way the stewards think you are wrong, and imo experience usually trumps opinions considering they have access to more facts/data than you.
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medal 5000
2 years 196 days ago
I may be stubborn, I won't dany that. But only because in my opinion, every view I got so see about different cameras were confirming my first thoughts after the accident happend. But for myself I'm just a little bit mad about giving Max such a penalty. Just hope he recover from that and beats clean Hamilton in the next races.
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medal 5000
2 years 196 days ago
Ok, this is getting to professor levels😅 So, we can agree that Max was at fault, but we can't agree if the penalty was enough if I understand this correctly. But maybe it would be right by the FIA (or anyone else,maybe the teams) to try to calm down the situation. If not, things like that will happen again, and I can already see that there will be another crash involving them at Brazil because there will be the next sprint quali stuff😂
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medal 5000
2 years 196 days ago

Nico
Ok, this is getting to professor levels😅 So, we can agree that Max was at fault, but we can't agree if the penalty was enough if I understand this correctly. But maybe it would be right by the FIA (or anyone else,maybe the teams) to try to calm down the situation. If not, things like that will happen again, and I can already see that there will be another crash involving them at Brazil because there will be the next sprint quali stuff😂



Both at fault and Max did get the penalty, there I agree hehe. I won't discuss any further, cause I won't argue with the stewards. I just don't hope they make each other more angry. I like more clean races. 
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medal 5000
2 years 196 days ago

Patrick
It does not make sense at all, that when someone would get a 10 second penalty but can't drive further, will get the penalty next race is completly unnecessary. I mean, you could argue if 10 seconds are 3 grids, but hopefully Verstappen can recover, after Hamilton mistake (still my opinion). I'm not Verstappen or Hamilton fan, but I do dislike Hamilton more then any other driver in F1, alone for being such an a*sh*le on track after winning 7 WMs.




I agree with this...




Kevin
The stewards apply penalties for incidents, not for the consequences of incidents. So the fact Hamilton continued to run at Silverstone and Verstappen was out of the race is not relevant to the severity of the penalty.

At Silverstone, Lewis was deemed to be predominantly at fault for causing a collision and was in "Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code" and was given the applicable penalty, in this case a 10 second time penalty.

Fast forward to Italy, this time the stewards deemed Max was predominantly at fault for the collision and was in violation of exactly the same rule (Breach of Article 2 d) Chapter IV Appendix L of the FIA International Sporting Code).

Therefore they applied a standard penalty. If Max had continued to race I imagine they would have applied the same 10 second penalty that they gave Lewis at Silverstone. But in Italy, because Max was unable to continue to race they couldn't apply a time penalty so it became a three place grid penalty for the next race.

In both cases the driver at fault was given a 2 point penalty on their race license.



The reason a penalty given is the consequence of the incident. I mean as i said on my point of view number 2, a bit of an argue but it may not matter for too long if those involve continue on, like back on Alonso Vs Massa turn 6 2007 Nurburgring GP. As of Monza, Max took out Lewis, ruined both races and they didn't finish. The verdict of giving Max that penalty was right after the race, far after the occasion took place. Because there are things to consider. And as for Silverstone if Max had continued just fine as Lewis, then the incident still there. Then afterwards from out of nowhere Hamilton was given a 5 second penalty for causing a collision while Max kept going. The effect of the incident is therefore not neglectable. That's why either Lewis of Copse corner Silverstone or Max of Retifillio corner Monza given the penalty...
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medal 5003 Super Mod
2 years 196 days ago
I repeat, on both of these occasions the stewards gave a penalty for the incident, the severity of the penalty was not adjusted to take account of the consequences.

As an example, imagine Mazepin crashes into another car which causes it to DNF. On investigation the stewards decide Mazepin is guilty of causing a collision. Are you suggesting that if he crashed into (again for example) Latifi and therefore has no effect on the championship he should get a lighter penalty than if he were to crash into either Max or Lewis? 

The stewards should apply the same penalty in both scenarios.

Have you read the official FIA documents explaining the stewards decisions for both of the Max / Lewis incidents?

Great Britain:


Italy:

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medal 5000
2 years 196 days ago
It's official:

Max Verstappen was 2nd into Turn 1, Turn 2 at Monza, and also 2nd into Kelly Piquet 🤣🤣
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medal 5000
2 years 195 days ago
This is all wrapped up, Let's turn our heads into Sochi. Regardless, whatever happens this season will be put to the debrief for all on track and including us the race fans...
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