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R.I.P the level cap

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medal 5000
7 years 312 days ago
it's been tried it simply dont work ... well it half works it keeps the gap down between rookie and pro while letting the gap between pro and elite increase.
it seems in a sport where going as fast as possible slowing everyone down is dumb and the level cap needs to be driven out into the mexican desert and buried alongside all those copies of E.T however it seems they are trying to work the game around the level cap instead of just ditching it the way that F1 did with that god awfull new qualifing system.
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medal 5000
7 years 312 days ago
HAHA yep it needs a smack on the bum and told to go sit on the naughty step for having attempted to destroy the players fun.
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medal 5002
7 years 312 days ago
Regarding the level cap... Maybe it's just nostalgia kicking in but in my opinion the old game had got the balance just about right. There were restrictions on facilities based on manager level (no KERS or DRS until you'd put some time and effort in) but I don't remember there being any restrictions linked to the tier in which you competed. So by the time you reached Manager L6 you got basic KERS and there were a few Talent 20 drivers around which you could employ and then train them without restriction. However, to get them to the weight, fitness and speed required to perform well took two or three seasons so it was definitely not an instant process.
I don't understand why the new game can't take the best elements of classic iGP (i.e. no tier level cap on drivers or facilities) whilst retaining the good points of this version (having to manage the distribution of dp to suit the requirements of different circuits and no more on/off season).
As I see it, the biggest problem of lifting driver training caps and for their health to be instantly restored with tokens plus also allowing tokens to instantly build facilities you are creating a "pay to win" game. Unless I'm missing something, the answer to this is to limit the number of tokens that can be used in a season. In this way you place a restriction on the rate at which teams can be developed but you still allow players to choose between playing the game for free and accepting the fact that it may take a little longer to develop a winning team or spend a reasonable amount of money (not disimilar to the old iGP subscription cost) to develop your team and achieve that success a little more quickly. The extra tokens would also allow you to pay the wages of a couple of reserve / academy drivers being trained ready for when your main drivers get too old. In old iGP this usually resulted in a couple of seasons of pain whilst you trained a new driver.
I posted this suggestion in the "No relegation" thread which I now realise was the wrong place. I'm also not sure if I made it clear how my suggestion would work.
To me it makes perfect sense but I'm sure there must be unforseen drawbacks. So what are they?
Oh BTW.... please, please, please can we have DRS in wet races? I know it's not true to life but without DRS half distance wet races are simply a "one stop procession".
Sit back and wait for all the reasons that my suggestions won't work :-)
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medal 5000
7 years 311 days ago
The Token problem should be already solved by the remaining limits set by the manager level. You still can't expand HQ beyond your level and while you theoretically could train your drivers to perfection the training becomes hugely inefficient, and therefore extremely expensive, if the driver level exceeds your manager level (it drops to 2% progress per training unit if I remember correctly).
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medal 5090 CEO & CTO
7 years 311 days ago
Shaun
it's been tried it simply dont work ... well it half works it keeps the gap down between rookie and pro while letting the gap between pro and elite increase.

Could you elaborate with some examples?

Kevin
I don't understand why the new game can't take the best elements of classic iGP (i.e. no tier level cap on drivers or facilities) whilst retaining the good points of this version (having to manage the distribution of dp to suit the requirements of different circuits and no more on/off season).

While we didn't foresee all of the outcomes on the new platform, I don't think it's flawed in any way to have a progression through the game (levelling up) as long as it is paced correctly. Some of the most interesting new features are also coming via balancing, so I am confident in this direction and realise people will always find fault with any system ultimately.

When it comes down to it, for most people the perfect system is one where they are winning. :D That was the same in the old iGP and the new one. We'd be hard pushed to find an MMO where people don't complain about the game mechanics when they aren't winning and generally enjoy them when they are, speaking in the broadest sense. But that doesn't mean I think this is perfect right now, and that should be obvious from my posts. I'm working closely with the whole community to address any concerns they have.

Kevin
To me it makes perfect sense but I'm sure there must be unforseen drawbacks. So what are they?

To put it simply, when the game is a free service to anyone who wants it to be, the drawback could be the service becoming unsustainable. The nature of a free to access game is that it costs money and resources to provide the vanilla free experience, some people pay in a bit and have a neutral impact, while another group spend a lot, and subsidise the free service to the first group. It's essential that some individuals are able to spend as much as they want then, and it's our job to enable that with appropriate checks and balances to ensure fairness and the same effects can be achieved by investing time or effort.

As Daniel said above, and I said in the relegation thread as well, the system genuinely lets a casual free player who invests his time beat a billionaire who spends his fortune on tokens. A billionaire also can't join the game and even jump further in than someone who just played for two weeks. That's perfectly reasonable in my opinion and I think we've struck a good balance to achieve that. Talking of billionaires is just to illustrate the example, but thinknig in those terms will overstate what we actually make. We wouldn't just be three guys working from home if we had the budget to support a bigger operation. We're taking things one step at a time and growing from the ground up. The only way to grow this in to something big without the help of a publisher etc. is to make it free to access and do what we're doing. Hopefully that all makes sense. :)
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medal 5002
7 years 311 days ago
Jack
I wasn't criticising, I think you and the other two developers have done an excellent job. One league I am currently leading by quite a margin, in another league I won every race by a country mile and in the third league I was regularly in the top 2 so I'm not a bad loser having a moan.
I just think that the caps based on Manager level AND tier makes it difficult for players to break into the elite tier and remain there. In the old game if I was a L10 manager and hired a Talent 20 driver I could train that driver to well beyond my manager level and the rate of improvement was much the same as a L20 Manager training the same driver.
In this version if I'm a L10 manager as soon as my driver hits overall L11 (5 stars) the rate of improvement drops to 3% per button press so it takes forever to further improve the driver. Whereas a L20 Manager training the same driver will only see him as a 3 or 4 star driver and will get something like 20% per button press.
It would be unrealistic to expect the lower level manager to start beating the L20 guy but it might be nice if he/she had half a chance of finishing on the same lap and gaining the odd point to avoid immediate relegation.
I accept that this venture needs to be profitable which is why I didn't mind subscribing to the last version and would happily buy a few tokens tokens in this version to help me remain competitive. This is why I didn't say to stop people from using tokens altogether but to limit the number that could be spent per season. At the moment a team will earn 3 tokens per race, so 51 per season. About half of these will need to be converted to cash otherwise you're pretty soon going to become bankrupt. If there were to be a spend limit of say 80 tokens per season (which is approx. 3 weeks for an every day league), the additional 29 tokens would need to be bought for approx. £2.00 which is pretty much in line with the monthly subscription for old iGP.
So the restrictions would be removed and those that wanted to spend money to progress more quickly would be able to do so but the restriction on token spend would mean the billionaires would be excluded from buying instant success. Unless of course they pay someone to hack the game :-)
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medal 5090 CEO & CTO
7 years 311 days ago
Kevin
I'm not a bad loser having a moan.

Oh, I wasn't implying that, just saying no matter what we do someone will have a strong opinion on it. Whatever the system is, the people who aren't winning will say it needs fixing. That is the golden rule. :)

Kevin
I just think that the caps based on Manager level AND tier makes it difficult for players to break into the elite tier and remain there. In the old game if I was a L10 manager and hired a Talent 20 driver I could train that driver to well beyond my manager level and the rate of improvement was much the same as a L20 Manager training the same driver.

Would the soft level cap being discussed in the relegation thread not resolve most of these problems? The only thing that would need addressing then is the pacing of levelling up, e.g. so that everyone can get similar progress on training. Something a bit like what the research system has done for design, in other words, but for driver training. A leveller.

Kevin
If there were to be a spend limit of say 80 tokens per season (which is approx. 3 weeks for an every day league), the additional 29 tokens would need to be bought for approx. £2.00 which is pretty much in line with the monthly subscription for old iGP.

The new system is a totally different animal to subscriptions, those were guaranteed income once the contract was created, whereas the tokens are more like the old reward points (it evolved out of that system after all). To draw a comparison, if I sign up to a subscription game I pay in monthly. On a lot of games that use a system like tokens, I might buy some one month, then not buy any more for another 6 months. The spending patterns can be so erratic as it's based on convenience and the time you need them, not a schedule. I've tried to illustrate in the other thread and this one that the reason the idea to limit spending so heavily won't work is that it simply isn't sustainable if when a big spender comes along and decides he wants to spend £200 we tell him he can only spend £2 now, and while we're at it we're also going to provide 24/7 race simulations for free to anyone who decides to join, with hundreds a day joining now. The numbers just don't add up. The cost of the free users who join in addition to the big spender won't be covered with £2, but they are with £200, to use this example.
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medal 5002
7 years 311 days ago
Okay, point taken, don't go out of business :-)
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medal 5090 CEO & CTO
7 years 311 days ago
Kevin
Okay, point taken, don't go out of business :-)

And would the soft level cap and some revisions to training progress address your concerns on levelling?
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medal 5000
7 years 311 days ago
you wanted an example ..... well elite can upgrade the entire time and the other divisions can only upgrade to a certain point therefore the void between the divisions will only ever grow bigger no matter what type of cap u have as it is the craetion of the level cap that has created the gap between divisions in the first instance.

just look in MJL there's a good few teams in pro that were around the same level as me however teams such as Iceman and Arrows have gone down they now 4/5 levels behind me and been unable to train drivers for several seasons so should they come back up do u think they will be able to compete as it's every single team that they have fallen behind they will just go back down and be capped some more once again unable to upgrade or do any training.
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medal 5090 CEO & CTO
7 years 311 days ago
Yeah, I'm confident this is exactly what we're going to address with the soft level cap. I appreciate the feedback, it has all gone in to what we'll do with the next big update.
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