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Training

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medal 5000
12 years 278 days ago (edited 12 years 278 days ago)
In order to avoid a discussion in the "[url=?url=forum-index/4]News & Announcements[/url]" forum, I created this thread about the new training system. Hope Lord Alexander Fermor Hesketh don't mind, sorry if you do :P
"Jack
Training - New Intelligent Skill Selection

Originally due for the Q1 patch, this has been implemented tonight, a few weeks in advance. When you train a driver only the lowest skills in the group will be raised. This ensures training will always be as effective as possible.



For example, if you have fast corners at 1 and slow corners at 2, by training speed, fast corners will get +2 and then slow corners +1, because as fast corners gains two levels, slow corners then becomes the lowest attribute, and so on.



For physical training health and weight will always be included in the training, along with a skill increase.

"Lord
Thanks Jack!



I hate it!



You might want to beat me....but:



It's a gamers feature to me, where everybody wants to be able to have superman as a driver.



In real life, training is sometimes without an effect, it doesn't automatically strengthen your weakest points and not everybody wil be able to reach the highest scores possible. Also is no one getting more healthy and looses weight when training all the time.



I really loved the approach before.



If you have a skill with 20 and train a category where that might apply and it does....bad luck.



Going this way we'll have over a short period of time only All-20-drivers. What' the point in that?



With this system it would be easier to give us three clicks to click on the ability we like to strengthen....click - click - click...done.

I don't like the approach of gamers to think, they always need to get what they want.



This feature is not a management simulation feature - it's a feature of a calculating machine for people always expecting an effort from whatever they do.



I love your work, I think you are doing great, but in this case you shouldn't have heard on the folks.



It makes training forseeable and therefor completely meaningless. The more experience a player has, the higher trained his driver is logically.



And when we all did 150+ races, training is boredom, as there is nothing left to train. Just clicking the agony away. Pointless.



I apologize. I hate it.

"Lord
Searching a driver from now on:



Take an 18-year old, sum up all his points in skill view and go for the one with most points (except for Talent and Experience which should be somewhat high).



Ready. Done. Have a little patience than, calculate how many trainings he needs and you can tell the exact day and time exactly when he is all 20.



Jack, please think about that approach again in terms of long time usage.



I beg, I pray, I ask to.  This is diabolicly killing all meaning of training and drivers selection. We'd become a bunch of superheros shortly.

"Dirk
*WOW!*



But I have to admit: The Lord is right.



I did the calculation: My driver will be all-20 in 83 races than (I did ignore Exp and Tal as the Lord said - whyever).

Means: In not even 5 seasons lately its done. The driver can't get better, is 23 years old then (mine is 18) and well....what do I do the rest of his years?

No need to hire another one! No need for doing anything there! The drivers aspect is meaningless. It's only about patience...



It's true. Now it feels like waiting only...

"Rudolf
Skills degrade over time so you will have to counter that. It's going to happen even faster as your driver grows older. It's not as easy as you say it is.

"Lord
So you think when everything has reached 20, you can't train the atrophy off a 25 year old, because after every race four abilities drop?



I doubt that heavily. At least I don't think that decision, experience, morale, anticipation or charisma will drop.



I really think it is as easy as it could get.



As well I don't like it, that any click does have to result in an effort, just because players are getting tired of useless training.



Welcome to the real world I'd say, where a decision isn't always forseeable.



I could calm down. Its not my product and if I dont like it, I might do my own. But I really don't like that appoach.

The next is, that we'll get a list of any ability and what it means. That would be the end of any simulation.



Do you really think every F1 driver has the right and possibility to reach the high end of everything?



How many drivers do you think ou will see in teams with more than 100 races NOT having Slow, Fast, Wet to 20 or at least 19?



Sounds like a holiday in Westworld surrounded by a thousand Yul Brynner's...




My view;

I had that thought too Lord and I'm concerned about the same issues, but if everything relies on pure luck isn't that great either!
I think that there must be a trade-off in other to get the benefits of a "full training", how about this:
The new system, which allows level up in the lower skills, stays as it is. However, in order to benefit from that, you must do the full race distance in "take be risks" to be able to train overtaking; the full race in "be aggressive" to train Speed; full race in "consistence is key" to train Mental; "Play it safe" to train Defending and "We must bring the car home" to train Technical and you could train Physical whenever you  want.
 
If you don't want to spend the entire race in the same setting, or if you want to train something different (i.e. you did the full distance in "be aggressive" but you want to train defending), your training would be by the old system (random).
 
Would be to hard? Would you trade performance in the race for training? It would kill all the full?


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medal 5000
12 years 278 days ago
Thought about it as well for a while.

I like the idea of "having luck", but of course it has to be quiet a bit balanced at least.

Maybe all drivers have a secret barrier (some settings are limited to e.g. 13) using the old system.
Another approach would be not to train abilities which are 20 already but sooner or later ... you light reach 20 anywhere else.
Have to think into it quiet a bit more, but I don't like the idea, that you can train a coward to becom a brave and aggressive superhero.
Abilities should be grouped somehow and any effort will be a disadvantage in other areas.

All that should just point into a direction and not provide a steady outcome.

It's still in there. We see times differ more with one driver, than with an other regarding abilities and I really like that little bit of "luck" and randomization in it. Thats in life as well.
It should never be able to calculate a win or even a drivers abilities down to exact behaviour. You can say: We take a Montoya and form an Alonso. That's not possible in real life and it shouldn't be in game.

Of course the devs are allowed to do whatever they like, but I try to make a proposal. Will work on it.

Like your idea with the tradeoff as well. There is a thing to it I like.

I go back to my think-fabric and evolve a proposal...
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medal 5000
12 years 278 days ago
Where are you getting the maths behing 87 races to reach 20 in everything, assuming this does not even count atrophy its still going to take you 21+ weeks, some skills are untrainable, some train slower than others + everytime you level up [as a manager] you'll be able to hire a better driver than you currently have, so this isnt really going to become an issue until somebody reaches level 20 [Middle of July by the maths above] at which point a simple thing to do would not make 20 the highest skill available, make it 25-50-100 or whatever

Also since i had a quick look at stats/maths etc, ignoring atrophy it will take me 80 races, to have everything except 3 stats at 20, if you factor atrophy into this your prob looking at 87+ but still a driver of only 23

I'm fine with the way training is just now, tbh its discussing something that weeks/months away from happening & in a similar vein to [now i'm level 9 there no more facilitys/staff to buy] & [i'm level 20 and have all the best staff and drivers, now all the people lower level than me can beat me coz i cant get any better]



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medal 5000
12 years 278 days ago
It just fucked me up, I lost like 5 points on each driver, they got downgraded to skill 19, instead of 20 ( they had 22~21) and they have 20 and 22 years. how the hell a 20 year driver atrophy his skills if he is the best shape?

I think it was a mistake, if you limit something how can we have different drivers if the max they can get is 20? They'll all drive the same way, and this will make the game less competitive because people will get stuck on that limit real fast, I play it for like a month and already beat that.

You should've made something like, if you have 20+ skill you should train 2~3 races for leveling one attribute, but limiting it is not the way.

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medal 5000
12 years 277 days ago
Its just an approximat math done.

And we both don't think that a skill of 19 means you are really slower than a skill of 20.

Dont get into the details searching for an error. Its the bottomline that counts: We will all have superdrivers. Period. Atrophy yes or no. I can easily compensate that thn with havin 17 chances. AND: I will always hit the right ability with my training.

Another thing: I loved to see my drivers having character! I had that element of thinking: "Well, as it might rain, I give the new parts to driver A, as he is my rainman"

Now if you train them three times "speed" always the worst is hit. The rain-dumbo gets "+3 wet"; "+3 wet"; "+3 wet" and with just a few races trained with speed my drivers are equal and lost any character.

I never smile after training thinking: "YES! This was a good training". I know before I click EXACTLY what will happen.

Yu all want to win. You all want always en effort by any click? This is your feature.

To me its like playing with dices and know exactly how they fall. I couldn't be more bored - I might win, but I don't care anymore.

And never forget: It WILL change how you hire a driver (it does it completely on my side, as I play the game long-term. I don't care about winning for 5 seasons and THAN everybody has a superdriver. Being "18 slow corners" or "20 slow corners"....really...that doesn't make that much of difference...click on "Speedtraining" once and its gone.
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medal 5000
12 years 277 days ago
The best might be: We test that for a time and we'll see who is still thinking about the drivers-part.

I assume: Not much.
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medal 5000
12 years 277 days ago
"Lord


And never forget: It WILL change how you hire a driver (it does it completely on my side, as I play the game long-term. I don't care about winning for 5 seasons and THAN everybody has a superdriver. Being "18 slow corners" or "20 slow corners"....really...that doesn't make that much of difference...click on "Speedtraining" once and its gone.

Indeed it will, but [without telling you the 4 main stats i look for] hopefully we're not all going for the same "type" of driver, even if we'll all end up similar at some point, but whats to say your driver even can get to 20 in everything?
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medal 6098 CEO & CTO
12 years 277 days ago
"T
It just fucked me up, I lost like 5 points on each driver

Please see the Rules & Regulations (4.6 Skill Levels). They are not exactly dropping 1.0, more likely 0.1, but they are displayed as whole numbers despite being stored as decimals in the database.

@Alexander - I can understand your concern, but it was written in the Q1 patch notes that this change was coming for some time, and how it would work. To hear these concerns before building it would probably have resulted in some tweaks, so next time try to raise any concerns earlier if possible.

For now, I think this is better than getting points all on things you don't want to train at all, but I do think drivers need personalities to differentiate them as you say. Something I have been thinking is perhaps we could add a character / personality for each driver which their skills will evolve around. E.g. An aggressive driver may level well at attacking and less so at defending. An Intelligent driver may grow well in Technical ability and less so at raw speed.

Rather than the new system closing options, I think it opens a whole new opportunity to make it more interesting.
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medal 5000
12 years 277 days ago
"Jack

@Alexander - I can understand your concern, but it was written in the Q1 patch notes that this change was coming for some time, and how it would work. To hear these concerns before building it would probably have resulted in some tweaks, so next time try to raise any concerns earlier if possible.



For now, I think this is better than getting points all on things you don't want to train at all, but I do think drivers need personalities to differentiate them as you say. Something I have been thinking is perhaps we could add a character / personality for each driver which their skills will evolve around. E.g. An aggressive driver may level well at attacking and less so at defending. An Intelligent driver may grow well in Technical ability and less so at raw speed.



Rather than the new system closing options, I think it opens a whole new opportunity to make it more interesting.


You are totally right here. Me to blame. I fully understand as well, as the driver IN the game are needing as much development, as the game itself needs development. I understood as well, that you have as well thoughts of raising it to personalities (and what has to do with it) and that's enough for me right now to be satisfied. Doesn't matter if that system is with us for two weeks or two years. I can bare that, as long as I know, its not the end.

Thanks for sharing that. Fine with me.
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medal 5000
12 years 277 days ago
I just didn't understood one thing, how did my driver had 22 slow corners if the max was 20?

I just kept training speed and he kept lvling it up :D

Maybe it would be good if we can train exactly an attribute, but with the penalty of not getting too much as if it wasn't you.
For an example, if you just set Defending you get 3 (no more random) points, but if you want to train only focus you get 2 points.

what do you guys think about it?
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medal 5000
12 years 277 days ago
"Jack
For now, I think this is better than getting points all on things you don't want to train at all, but I do think drivers need personalities to differentiate them as you say. Something I have been thinking is perhaps we could add a character / personality for each driver which their skills will evolve around. E.g. An aggressive driver may level well at attacking and less so at defending. An Intelligent driver may grow well in Technical ability and less so at raw speed.

Rather than the new system closing options, I think it opens a whole new opportunity to make it more interesting.

How about a "talent" number for each skill instead of just one skill that is talent (and which you can not train).
When you hire a driver you can see what attributes can be trained easily (talented) and what can not be trained easiliy and atrophy faster. (You could call this character)

In real life when I train myself to do a new skill my improvement at the start is astonishing (exponential). But as soon as I am getting good at it the rapid improvement stops and I have to train/practice  twice as much to get only a small gain. Also, when I have high skill at a certain attribute and I stop using/training this skill it will atrophy faster.

In summary:
1. Remove talent attribute and give talent to each individual attribute.
2. Do not make training lineair but sigmoidal (like an saturation curve or receptor binding curve) (see link for shape of the curve)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen–haemoglobin_dissociation_curve)

I am not a programmer but if I would have to guess these suggestions are not that hard to implement.
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medal 5000
12 years 272 days ago
I think that the atrophy thing is too heavy, in 3 races I lost 2 points, and my drivers have 20 and 22 years. 
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medal 5000
12 years 271 days ago
"T
I think that the atrophy thing is too heavy, in 3 races I lost 2 points, and my drivers have 20 and 22 years. 

But in those 3 races u surely training so gained 9 points.... making a +7 total, or do you mean that you lost 2 points after training
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medal 5000
12 years 265 days ago (edited 12 years 265 days ago)
I think the health gain is too low with physical training, many good drivers on the market are exhausted, it takes too long to get them to a competitive amount of health if max is +2 points health you gain with training. It's just enough to maintain your drivers health, but not for gaining health unless you don't train other attributes.

Giving the gym more functions would be a nice thing to regenerate exhausted drivers ;)

If it stays like it is now, the result will be that nobody will train their drivers physically, instead drop the driver and picking a new more healthier one after a season. What happens to the driver market should be logical, many exhausted drivers, giving newbies a real disadvantage.
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medal 5000
12 years 265 days ago
Giving the gym more functions would be a nice thing to regenerate exhausted drivers [img]design/icon/emoticon/wink.gif[/img]


Love it!
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medal 5000
12 years 257 days ago
Have to +1 the above post, could either training physical or doctor "staff" increase health by a higher % even doing both you only go up by 3% which isnt a lot different from what you actually lose from racing
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medal 5000
12 years 257 days ago
Good point
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medal 5000
12 years 255 days ago
maybe we all need a cloning machine?
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medal 5000
12 years 249 days ago
can devs add more options with training and possibly different training system?
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medal 5000
12 years 249 days ago
"@
Have to +1 the above post, could either training physical or doctor "staff" increase health by a higher % even doing both you only go up by 3% which isnt a lot different from what you actually lose from racing

you only lose 1% off your health a race so doing health training just returns it back to wot it previously was doing physical moves it 2% more.
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