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Reducing the effect of fuel

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Frank Thomas Moderator
6 years 46 days ago

The thing I don't like about no refueling is however exactly that everything just relies on the tyres then. With refueling it's at least some juggle to find the best compromise in between the best option of fuel weight vs number of pit stops and best tyre compound, it's durability (falloff) and number of pit stops needed, again. Together with the thing that an imperfect strategy can beat a perfect one if it's (successfully) tailored to use traffic better to its advantage the set of viable strategies is limited but on most tracks not to one option only.

Currently the tyres are already a very strong deciding factor and despite the ongoing efforts to balance them I wouldn't bet it'll successful enough to offer a variety if they're the only factor. Additionally I'm not so sure if strategies will be much fun if it's just a matter of tyre choice and deciding when to stop, then best just a little bit earlier, rather than the later now, than the competition but not that early that it compromises the tyre health later into the race too much, instead of the current dragging out the stint that much that tyre degradation weights heavier than the advantage of way less fuel.

The thing about lessen the fuel weight effect is that it's still not enough to make an undercut viable because as long as there's fuel weight at all the stopped car will always be heavier, it'll just reduce the amount a tyre can be run into wear before it outweights the fuel advantage and thus it limits the options of performing a successful overcut. Thus it'll more likely to limit the tactical options instead of improving them and at best makes no difference.

Kevin Taylor
6 years 46 days ago

Like you say Frank, there would still probably be an optimum strategy but maybe the design attributes Fuel Economy and Tyre Economy would be more influential. Early in the season, before all teams are maxed out in most attributes, this could make a considerable difference.
It would however also require an overhaul of the game mechanics to make temperature more influential on tyre wear and circuits more influential on fuel consumption. At the moment circuit characteristics don't appear to have any influence on fuel consumption at all. This season my team had a better fuel consumption at Silverstone at 7 degrees than they did at Monaco at 12 degrees! How does that happen?
If tyre wear and fuel consumption were more variable it would change the ideal strategy from season to season.

Frank Thomas Moderator
6 years 45 days ago (edited 6 years 45 days ago)

I'm not so sure, the effect of Fuel Economy might be different but not more. You would need quite an advantage to save several litres and the advantage gets lower by the lap until it's zero at the end of the race. Today it's more tailoring the consumption towards the strategy to avoid dead weight and having a tiny advantage, or no disadvantage, towards the end of each stint, or at least the important stints. Unless the effect of FE is increased, but this would make it more important with refueling as well as going into a same length stint with slightly less fuel, or doing an extra lap or two with less pace penalty, would also become more often an option.

Tyre Efficiency has just too little effect now. Maybe it's noticeable with running Hards to the very end of their life but other compounds it just doesn't do enough to be able to decide if someone can do a lap more or not. If it gets a nice boost, which I hope it will in any case, then again I'd say it would benefit both modes. With refueling it can be used as a deciding factor if you can pull off that overcut by being able to run that extra lap quick enough while the fresher tyres than the competitor during the laps before help you close the gap. Without refueling it might reduce the risk of a successful undercut if you can do most of the lap you're pitting later with still healthy tyres or you can attempt an undercut without having to risk running the last laps of the race with (as much) tyre wear disadvantage.

What I think would be the best solution is improving the effect of these stats to get them more in line with the big 4 and then allow the leagues to allow or block refueling. In the end it's always the test of reality that shows how good or bad an idea really is.

The simulation of the fuel consumption could be improved as well of course.

Ege Çağdaş Aladağ
6 years 45 days ago

Hey again, I'm just coming back to point another thing out, but this time kind of backing off on my initial suggestion. I hadn't really noticed the effect of Fuel/Tyre economy until now, so I think it's better to change my focus than to want a change in the game. It's still a tank if you put 70 Litres, but you won't have to if you have the right fuel economy in your car. Thanks for the discussion though, it's been quite nice.

Stu C
6 years 44 days ago

3 comments to make

1 - @ege - if you have 100 fuel consumption, you can do a max of around 25 laps maybe before hitting 50L, after 50L your an absoulte tank, there is no way you can change this, and this is at 50L with 100 fuel stat, i know some people reckon have a "certain number" but imho, you max a stat.. its the best option you can have for a longer distance (in regards to fuel at least), at 100 fuel, you should be able to 1 stop and be competitive, not be 50 seconds behind someone who is 3 stopping EVERY race.

2 - @ bo - keep on trolling and acting the idiot, i never said you said you oppose them, i just made the point that your against my idea which aims at opening up more strategies, by very definitiion of being opposed to my idea and offering no better suggestion, your basically saying "i dont want that".. ie, you want the current "1 strat only works", but i forgot, you race in 50% races and dont know shit.

3 - @ the guy who suggested me and bo argue less.. i agree, but bo is just here to be a jerk and argue, so its a bit hard, i did ask him to stop in PM because i will be even more petty the more he trolls, but he instead called my message threatening and abusive in public, and continued trolling, hopefully bo gets past 5 years old and starts being a constructive member of the forum sometime soon. (see, i can be quite petty.. i am trying not to be, but its hard!)

kees nunspeet
6 years 40 days ago

Kevin

IMO the undercut doesn't work in iGP because we still allow re-fuelling during a pit stop. A car attempting the undercut will come out of the pits with a heavy fuel load, the car staying out will have worn tyres but the low fuel will be more than enough to offset the degraded tyres. Clearly you already understand and agree with this because the title of this thread is "Reducing the effect of fuel"

There is another way to mix up the racing and make for alternative strategies... ban refuelling altogether. Cars would have to begin the race with enough fuel to take them all the way to the finish line which would place more emphasis on tyre strategy. The undercut would become a reality and developing both the fuel and tyre attributes would have more importance.

Fuel: By developing this attribute you may be able to run with two or three litres less fuel than a competitor which at the beginning of the race would be a significant advantage. As the race progresses the difference in fuel load reduces and the effect of better fuel economy also reduces.

Tyres: By developing this attribute your tyres will remain fresher so your car will get progressively better as the stint goes on than a competitor whose tyres are wearing faster. You might also be able to go another lap or two without them falling off the cliff in terms of performance which could make the difference during the last few laps of the race.

Finally, no refuelling would mean running out of fuel would end the race for managers who got their calculation wrong. You either take a conservative approach and run with a heavier car or an aggressive approach and risk running out of fuel. The aggressive approach would also bring PL management more into play, if you're marginal on fuel you could maybe scrape over the line by reducing to PL1 for the final part of the race but this would be at the detriment of tyre temperature.

So IMO banning refuelling brings a lot more strategy into the game. Is it going to happen? Unlikely, but I thought I'd put it out there so you can all shoot me LOL.

i like this idea.

what if we let the league host decide?
i mean, you can select a few options for a league.
1: the way it is now, with refueling and every tire avalible
2: no refueling, obligated to use 2 different compounds in a race
3: .....

Bo Alberti
6 years 38 days ago

Like a little girl stu, cant let it rest huh.. n u think im the bad guy...

Peter Man
6 years 38 days ago

Reducing the effect of fuel, would effectively produce less pitstops per average race, and therefore less strategy options.

Less strategy options would mean more stale racing. It's the pitstops that mix things up in races, and breaks the somewhat monotony of following another car around with the same fuel/tyres.

Stu C
6 years 36 days ago (edited 6 years 36 days ago)

Peter Man
Reducing the effect of fuel, would effectively produce less pitstops per average race, and therefore less strategy options.

Less strategy options would mean more stale racing. It's the pitstops that mix things up in races, and breaks the somewhat monotony of following another car around with the same fuel/tyres.

Depends on your pov i guess.

Lighter Fuel Load = you can do 1,2,3,4,5 stops and the difference between them will be less, by reducing fuel load, tyres would need re-balancing to allow for greater strategy options (ie, SS for shorter stints, H for longer stints, etc)

Current Fuel Loads (in 100% at least) = 3 stop every single race... 2 stops sometimes, 4 stops sometimes.. but its RARE, and 2 stop race likely doesnt work, because often the fuel load weighs so much you are losing 3 seconds a lap compared to someone on low fuel.

From my POV if tyres were rebalanced after fuel weight is changed.. SS would be for 5 stop races, S would be 4 stop, M 2 stop, hard 1 stop, but then you could mix and match tyres and fuel weights.. making strategies more open. Maybe my POV is flawed though. Thoughts?

Bo Alberti
Like a little girl stu, cant let it rest huh.. n u think im the bad guy...

Says the person who posts SIMPLY to troll me because you dont have the brain capacity to argue your point, probably because you realise im right and dont like that. P.S. I dont think your a bad guy, i think your a bad baby. You certainly cry like one. "waa waa im not a bad guy". I still see, you have no response to my comment.. just troll troll troll.

P.S. calling me a girl, how old are you? Sounds like an insult a child would use in primary school. FYI btw, as you probably dont know this fact either.. primary school is for 5-8 year olds.

Please note - i was making this a trolling post only to show Bo how his posts are actually like compared to my normal posts, but i had a point to reply to so had to add that to this post.. DOH.

Ian Wharam
6 years 33 days ago

Kevin

IMO the undercut doesn't work in iGP because we still allow re-fuelling during a pit stop. A car attempting the undercut will come out of the pits with a heavy fuel load, the car staying out will have worn tyres but the low fuel will be more than enough to offset the degraded tyres. Clearly you already understand and agree with this because the title of this thread is "Reducing the effect of fuel"

There is another way to mix up the racing and make for alternative strategies... ban refuelling altogether. Cars would have to begin the race with enough fuel to take them all the way to the finish line which would place more emphasis on tyre strategy. The undercut would become a reality and developing both the fuel and tyre attributes would have more importance.

Fuel: By developing this attribute you may be able to run with two or three litres less fuel than a competitor which at the beginning of the race would be a significant advantage. As the race progresses the difference in fuel load reduces and the effect of better fuel economy also reduces.

Tyres: By developing this attribute your tyres will remain fresher so your car will get progressively better as the stint goes on than a competitor whose tyres are wearing faster. You might also be able to go another lap or two without them falling off the cliff in terms of performance which could make the difference during the last few laps of the race.

Finally, no refuelling would mean running out of fuel would end the race for managers who got their calculation wrong. You either take a conservative approach and run with a heavier car or an aggressive approach and risk running out of fuel. The aggressive approach would also bring PL management more into play, if you're marginal on fuel you could maybe scrape over the line by reducing to PL1 for the final part of the race but this would be at the detriment of tyre temperature.

So IMO banning refuelling brings a lot more strategy into the game. Is it going to happen? Unlikely, but I thought I'd put it out there so you can all shoot me LOL.

I think that this would work really well

Peter Man
6 years 32 days ago

I think it all depends on what era of Formula 1 you grew up watching, as to what your fuel preferences are.

You remember those races when you where a kid and with fond memories :)

Kevin Taylor
6 years 32 days ago

@Peter. I grew up watching the likes of Jackie Stewart, Graham Hill etc. and have followed the sport ever since. So my suggestion had nothing to do with aligning iGP to any particular era of F1 rules. I genuinely believe it would open up more strategy options and make the Fuel and Tyre economy design attributes more important. I don't think this suggestion will go anywhere but it has prompted some interesting discussion.

Stu C
6 years 17 days ago

what would be nice, is if the league host had some settings they could flick.

for example.. "fuel in pit stops? (season option)".. turn it on, you can refuel in pitstops, turn it off, you cant, if fuel in pitstops is turned off, then for 100% races, they will have to double the fuel tank size, + weight would have to be reduced, because you can still run out of fuel... unless your suggesting everyone would start with equal fuel and there would just be a "this lap has this much weight" thing going on.. if you could still choose your own fuel level, I think that would be better, but even fuel for everyone would remove the fuel aspect completely.

push and run more fuel, use less fuel and turn the PL down.. new strategy options, but wont work with current tires setup sadly. because most tires require pushing in winter.

So it may not work in every way people would hope, but it would be nice to have that option.

Ron Dennis
6 years 17 days ago

Kevin

IMO the undercut doesn't work in iGP because we still allow re-fuelling during a pit stop. A car attempting the undercut will come out of the pits with a heavy fuel load, the car staying out will have worn tyres but the low fuel will be more than enough to offset the degraded tyres. Clearly you already understand and agree with this because the title of this thread is "Reducing the effect of fuel"

There is another way to mix up the racing and make for alternative strategies... ban refuelling altogether. Cars would have to begin the race with enough fuel to take them all the way to the finish line which would place more emphasis on tyre strategy. The undercut would become a reality and developing both the fuel and tyre attributes would have more importance.

Fuel: By developing this attribute you may be able to run with two or three litres less fuel than a competitor which at the beginning of the race would be a significant advantage. As the race progresses the difference in fuel load reduces and the effect of better fuel economy also reduces.

Tyres: By developing this attribute your tyres will remain fresher so your car will get progressively better as the stint goes on than a competitor whose tyres are wearing faster. You might also be able to go another lap or two without them falling off the cliff in terms of performance which could make the difference during the last few laps of the race.

Finally, no refuelling would mean running out of fuel would end the race for managers who got their calculation wrong. You either take a conservative approach and run with a heavier car or an aggressive approach and risk running out of fuel. The aggressive approach would also bring PL management more into play, if you're marginal on fuel you could maybe scrape over the line by reducing to PL1 for the final part of the race but this would be at the detriment of tyre temperature.

So IMO banning refuelling brings a lot more strategy into the game. Is it going to happen? Unlikely, but I thought I'd put it out there so you can all shoot me LOL

I like the idea

Roald van Luffelen
6 years 12 days ago

Jean

Kevin

IMO the undercut doesn't work in iGP because we still allow re-fuelling during a pit stop. A car attempting the undercut will come out of the pits with a heavy fuel load, the car staying out will have worn tyres but the low fuel will be more than enough to offset the degraded tyres. Clearly you already understand and agree with this because the title of this thread is "Reducing the effect of fuel"

There is another way to mix up the racing and make for alternative strategies... ban refuelling altogether. Cars would have to begin the race with enough fuel to take them all the way to the finish line which would place more emphasis on tyre strategy. The undercut would become a reality and developing both the fuel and tyre attributes would have more importance.

Fuel: By developing this attribute you may be able to run with two or three litres less fuel than a competitor which at the beginning of the race would be a significant advantage. As the race progresses the difference in fuel load reduces and the effect of better fuel economy also reduces.

Tyres: By developing this attribute your tyres will remain fresher so your car will get progressively better as the stint goes on than a competitor whose tyres are wearing faster. You might also be able to go another lap or two without them falling off the cliff in terms of performance which could make the difference during the last few laps of the race.

Finally, no refuelling would mean running out of fuel would end the race for managers who got their calculation wrong. You either take a conservative approach and run with a heavier car or an aggressive approach and risk running out of fuel. The aggressive approach would also bring PL management more into play, if you're marginal on fuel you could maybe scrape over the line by reducing to PL1 for the final part of the race but this would be at the detriment of tyre temperature.

So IMO banning refuelling brings a lot more strategy into the game. Is it going to happen? Unlikely, but I thought I'd put it out there so you can all shoot me LOL.

i like this idea.

what if we let the league host decide?
i mean, you can select a few options for a league.
1: the way it is now, with refueling and every tire avalible
2: no refueling, obligated to use 2 different compounds in a race
3: .....

Stu

what would be nice, is if the league host had some settings they could flick.

for example.. "fuel in pit stops? (season option)".. turn it on, you can refuel in pitstops, turn it off, you cant, if fuel in pitstops is turned off, then for 100% races, they will have to double the fuel tank size, + weight would have to be reduced, because you can still run out of fuel... unless your suggesting everyone would start with equal fuel and there would just be a "this lap has this much weight" thing going on.. if you could still choose your own fuel level, I think that would be better, but even fuel for everyone would remove the fuel aspect completely.

push and run more fuel, use less fuel and turn the PL down.. new strategy options, but wont work with current tires setup sadly. because most tires require pushing in winter.

So it may not work in every way people would hope, but it would be nice to have that option.

im in for this.

maybe there is an extra bar needed, the PL bar to keep control our tyre teprature and a seperate one for fuel economy.
if i reduce PL now it wil reduce the fuel usage by 0,1 liters per lap, that is not enough to use this for fuel strategy

Ege Çağdaş Aladağ
6 years 12 days ago

I really like that! Again, it could be seen a bad thing for players not attending the race, but it would be great to have two sliders for team radio! One is the driver's driving style like now, but the second one is for the engine modes, we could have 5 levels for it too and if there's no refuelling in league settings, then it can be a great way to play the game as well.

And I do not see this as a problem for non-watching managers because as long as they put the correct laps of fuel into the car then they could easily finish the race with the Engine Mode 3 which is the neutral one.

I mean I see no reason not to add a refuel allowed/not allowed option for leagues except for it's difficulty to add into the game at this point.

Also, haven't any developers replied to this thread yet?

Sam Leo
6 years 11 days ago

In general i would like the game more complex in a way that more than one or two ways can make car times lower.
At the moment
A) Drivers influence the times but at 16+ level all the same.
B) Boost / Drs as Drivers the same level the same speed.
C) Car attributes = in my opinion Acceleration Braking Handling and Downforce (a bit less) giving the speed
Fuel is a good parameter atm but i would like to see it at higher rates around 1.5 times as now = if a car uses 2 lit per lap to use 3 lit per lap . (this maybe gonna need tires changes that in my opinion are needed as i think we just changed type tire used we the last change)
D) Tire eco / Cooling / Reliability have very low impact on Tires / Engine in my opinion should increase with huge amount.

In general would like to see lap times and race times be able to lower with more ways than now.

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