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Yellow flags & Crashing

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medal 5000
3 years 350 days ago (Last edited by Tim Myers II 3 years 350 days ago)
 Yellow flags currently serve no purpose but to randomly mitigate the active use of DRS near the end of the race. 
Yellow flag situations currently lead to less control of the players to directly dictate the end of the race. 
Players who do not routinely maintain their car constantly break down near the end of the race. This is the main reason yellow flags will occur much more at the end of the race when the player's actions are the most pivotal.

Suggestion - Enable a Push Level 6, fastest mode available however there is a risk of crashing and/or the below mentioned suggestions such as an Aggressive mental state. Yellow flags would be directly attributed to a reward/risk of the players utilizing it. Remove yellow flags for cars breaking down or cars running out of fuel. This in turn leads all yellow flags being directly triggered by players actively participating in the race. While there is room for abuse I think this leads to less frustrating circumstances for yellow flags.


Some alternatives to crashing resulting in less player frustration due to a DNF
A) Driver's Mental stance/Attitude (Aggressive, Neutral or Passive). 
Aggressive would lead to increased chances of passing/defending but also lead to more incidents with other drivers 
Passive would lead to no increased passing/defending chances however ensure your driver rarely if at all initiates collisions and/or errors.
B)Collisions (cumulatively increased by push level or aggressiveness) due to racing incidents in which car damage occurs
C) Driver errors (increased by push level) in which they take a turn wide, are late on the brakes etc resulting in an error
D) Driver errors (increased by push level) with flat spotting the tyres (decreasing their life)
D)  Player controlled Engine mode/performance levels  excessively pushing this would damage the engine, possibly to the point of exhaustion

Vehicle damage could be implemented, and the player would have the option to enable "Repairs" for pit stops to bring their car back up to optimal performance as a counter balance for sustaining aggressive push levels.
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medal 5000
3 years 348 days ago
Like it, but doubt we'll see anything like it, there's a loud lobby that hates the idea that their nice neat strategies get interfered with by things beyond their control...you know, like in real racing. They tend to cry "random" a lot. 😞
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medal 5000
3 years 348 days ago

Dave
Like it, but doubt we'll see anything like it, there's a loud lobby that hates the idea that their nice neat strategies get interfered with by things beyond their control...you know, like in real racing. They tend to cry "random" a lot. 😞



Unfortunately that is very true but thats how the real life works so  in my opinion  it shouldwork like that in game
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medal 5000
3 years 348 days ago

Dave
Like it, but doubt we'll see anything like it, there's a loud lobby that hates the idea that their nice neat strategies get interfered with by things beyond their control...you know, like in real racing. They tend to cry "random" a lot. 😞



Agreed.
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medal 5000
3 years 348 days ago
I can understand the sentiment, but they have implemented yellow flags. Unless they remove it completely, they have demonstrated that is a design direction they currently have in mind.
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medal 5000
3 years 347 days ago

Tim
I can understand the sentiment, but they have implemented yellow flags. Unless they remove it completely, they have demonstrated that is a design direction they currently have in mind.



They did yellow flags, botched it, a stink was raised and now it is unnoticeable. Without the racing incidents that usually bring out a flag it is tokenism.

If it is the intention of the developers to move towards a less 'videogame', and more 'simulation game' raceday then they should announce that intention and do the job of rolling it out in a less piecemeal way. I hope they do. The OCD neat and tidy abstraction of a race crowd will squeal, but there are lots of driving videogames with powerup and silly driving without spinning off, there are very few, if any real motor racing management simulation games. 
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medal 5000
3 years 346 days ago
Reading the forum, I saw many people complaining about the flags or the inactive because they activate the flags, and are making suggestions on how to manage these inactive or their cars to be repaired, so as not to see the yellow flag used in the race... honestly let's talk clearly, the problem is not the inactive but the flags.
I think that update was a mistake, at the moment the flags are of no use except to anger the active people who play or to be able to say "WOW like in real life"...really useless.


Dave
Like it, but doubt we'll see anything like it, there's a loud lobby that hates the idea that their nice neat strategies get interfered with by things beyond their control...you know, like in real racing. They tend to cry "random" a lot. 😞



I don't know what you think about it, but for me a game that gives me the chance not to play (incidents) is not useful.
There are people who spend real money to buy tokens to invest in mechanical and engine parts, and you give them the chance to lose everything at random ... will it become a gamble game?
I strongly believe that random players are asking for more randomness, to be able to win some random race, somehow random, and then abandon for some random reason ...

Please, let's start thinking of this as a GAME, introducing playable factors, not random factors ...πŸ™„
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medal 4855 Moderator
3 years 346 days ago
@ Dave, you just repeat the same over and over again. You say you want simulation not lottery, no DRS trains but not all races being like boring rain races (well, I'm not sure about that as you seem to want simulate F1) but never give the slightest hint of a solution how you think it could be done. 
The best simulation games nowadays make a good job there, but still not properly simulating physics and have a gaming PC or at least decent powerful console to do it for one car as for AI cars it's downscaled and believeable reactions are 'just' part of their behavior sets.
iGPs servers don't have to deal with graphics but have to compute up to 32 cars each in hundreds of races simultaneously. How should iGP even come close to a simulation level of those other games? It can't and has to rely on clever abstractions and simple mathematic models, like those sim games from a few years ago. Those can do good job but anything based on chance not drawn from outside input, player or weather data for example, is just simply based on drawing a random number and not just looking unpredictable from the outside due to a vast amount of influences and for the game having to be not overly complex both for the player and to be computed it's hard, perhaps an impossible mission, to design anything more than letting the players pick a few custom numbers for their DNF bingo card.

Also I'm happy with iGP as a game as I want a competitive and challenging game and both failures and victories to be based on my, in comparison to the opponent ones, decisions. Not a mildy entertaining gambling show, highly detailed but boring simulation or pay 2 win, as that part of motorsport reality is pretty easy to simulate. For the lottery part the better manager still prevails on average, but every race one of the cars of my opponents or me is taken out of a race is a good chance for the race to be decided and thus a disappointing race.

That said, since working shifts it's currently more a challenge to figure out how to manage playing properly and preventing me so far from fully participating in a challenging league game, unfortunately.
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medal 5000
3 years 346 days ago

Gaetano
Reading the forum, I saw many people complaining about the flags or the inactive because they activate the flags, and are making suggestions on how to manage these inactive or their cars to be repaired, so as not to see the yellow flag used in the race... honestly let's talk clearly, the problem is not the inactive but the flags.
I think that update was a mistake, at the moment the flags are of no use except to anger the active people who play or to be able to say "WOW like in real life"...really useless.


Dave
Like it, but doubt we'll see anything like it, there's a loud lobby that hates the idea that their nice neat strategies get interfered with by things beyond their control...you know, like in real racing. They tend to cry "random" a lot. 😞



I don't know what you think about it, but for me a game that gives me the chance not to play (incidents) is not useful.
There are people who spend real money to buy tokens to invest in mechanical and engine parts, and you give them the chance to lose everything at random ... will it become a gamble game?
I strongly believe that random players are asking for more randomness, to be able to win some random race, somehow random, and then abandon for some random reason ...

Please, let's start thinking of this as a GAME, introducing playable factors, not random factors ...πŸ™„



Incidents in F1 are not random. They have a cause. Why assume that anything you do not directly control is random?
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medal 5000
3 years 346 days ago
I personally like the idea of breakdowns and crashes. I'd propose an idea that breakdowns are a consequence of reliability, cooling and wear because lets face it, at this moment in time it's a useless stat that people don't bother upgrading. Then you could even add staff morale into the equation because the Offices and Hospitality has seemingly no effect currently either.
As for crashes, that could/should be affected by driver morale, experience and composure. Even as stated above, push levels could also be factored in. My 18 year old driver, with 6 experience is consistently faster than my maxed out 27 year old driver. That needs addressing.
That way, the top teams should be able to keep status quo without the moaning as the only risk they'd likely incur would be push levels when fighting for position. As it should in my eyes.
I'd also like to see something like a morale boost for managers attending races because in my experience, on the rare occasion I do my setups but a miss race I tend to finish somewhere between 11th and 17th thereabouts rather than finishing in the points but one of the top 3 teams in my league, although the same level will usually win regardless if they turn up or not. It would also give a chance to give the lower level managers, particularly in Elite who attend every race a chance to sneak the odd point to fight relegation. 
I've probably not added much more than what has already been said but it's something I'd like to see get added in just to give a bit more excitement.
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medal 5000
3 years 345 days ago
Dave
Incidents in F1 are not random. They have a cause. Why assume that anything you do not directly control is random?


Not true, random accidents can occur in formula 1, such as engine failure, car tire fodder, someone who runs over you ... all the situations that we do not have direct control, because this is one of the definitions of the word random. For example even the rain is not random, it has its own path, but for us who do not have control of that path it becomes unpredictable ... random.

However I want to remind you for the hundredth time, we are not in F1 here ... this is a game.


Gareth
I personally like the idea of breakdowns and crashes. I'd propose an idea that breakdowns are a consequence of reliability, cooling and wear because lets face it, at this moment in time it's a useless stat that people don't bother upgrading. Then you could even add staff morale into the equation because the Offices and Hospitality has seemingly no effect currently either.
As for crashes, that could/should be affected by driver morale, experience and composure. Even as stated above, push levels could also be factored in. My 18 year old driver, with 6 experience is consistently faster than my maxed out 27 year old driver. That needs addressing.
That way, the top teams should be able to keep status quo without the moaning as the only risk they'd likely incur would be push levels when fighting for position. As it should in my eyes.
I'd also like to see something like a morale boost for managers attending races because in my experience, on the rare occasion I do my setups but a miss race I tend to finish somewhere between 11th and 17th thereabouts rather than finishing in the points but one of the top 3 teams in my league, although the same level will usually win regardless if they turn up or not. It would also give a chance to give the lower level managers, particularly in Elite who attend every race a chance to sneak the odd point to fight relegation. 
I've probably not added much more than what has already been said but it's something I'd like to see get added in just to give a bit more excitement.


At this moment reliability and cooling have minor roles, but also with a possibility of incidents, who would ever bet on those statistics compared to the 4 major ones? Who would do it could win 1-2 races luckily, but could never compete for a championship focusing on reliability and cooling, an update of this type would not change their usefulness.

You talk about exciting, but if you have an incident you don't play the rest of the race, so do you find it exciting not to play? don't do it πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚.




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medal 5000
3 years 345 days ago
Gaetano
Dave
Incidents in F1 are not random. They have a cause. Why assume that anything you do not directly control is random?


Not true, random accidents can occur in formula 1, such as engine failure, car tire fodder, someone who runs over you ... all the situations that we do not have direct control, because this is one of the definitions of the word random. For example even the rain is not random, it has its own path, but for us who do not have control of that path it becomes unpredictable ... random.

However I want to remind you for the hundredth time, we are not in F1 here ... this is a game.


Gareth
I personally like the idea of breakdowns and crashes. I'd propose an idea that breakdowns are a consequence of reliability, cooling and wear because lets face it, at this moment in time it's a useless stat that people don't bother upgrading. Then you could even add staff morale into the equation because the Offices and Hospitality has seemingly no effect currently either.
As for crashes, that could/should be affected by driver morale, experience and composure. Even as stated above, push levels could also be factored in. My 18 year old driver, with 6 experience is consistently faster than my maxed out 27 year old driver. That needs addressing.
That way, the top teams should be able to keep status quo without the moaning as the only risk they'd likely incur would be push levels when fighting for position. As it should in my eyes.
I'd also like to see something like a morale boost for managers attending races because in my experience, on the rare occasion I do my setups but a miss race I tend to finish somewhere between 11th and 17th thereabouts rather than finishing in the points but one of the top 3 teams in my league, although the same level will usually win regardless if they turn up or not. It would also give a chance to give the lower level managers, particularly in Elite who attend every race a chance to sneak the odd point to fight relegation. 
I've probably not added much more than what has already been said but it's something I'd like to see get added in just to give a bit more excitement.


At this moment reliability and cooling have minor roles, but also with a possibility of incidents, who would ever bet on those statistics compared to the 4 major ones? Who would do it could win 1-2 races luckily, but could never compete for a championship focusing on reliability and cooling, an update of this type would not change their usefulness.

You talk about exciting, but if you have an incident you don't play the rest of the race, so do you find it exciting not to play? don't do it πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚.







An engine failure in motor racing is very rarely random, indeed, in the view of one school of philosophy, randomness does not, as such, exist. Everything has a cause even if it is not understood. 

That is beside the point, you clearly showed where the pr, as you see it, lies...Control. You appear to want total control over e everything that impacts your cars results /performance. That is a valid viewpoint, but is completely alien to sports, including motor racing. The ideal pure contest between two competitors who have total control over everything between them is more akin to chess. A game where external factors are minimal. Maybe you want iGP to be more like chess...I game I enjoy and recommend. But I don't. I want iGP to be more like real motor racing, where team bosses are constantly reacting to things beyond their control. It's what differentiates the great from the merely good. It's why fans get excited to see spur of the moment decision making under extreme pressure and how it plays out on the track. Its what makes the sport great and not merely good.
I want great. 
Good is only a step on the way there. 
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medal 5000
3 years 345 days ago
Dave
 I want iGP to be more like real motor racing, where team bosses are constantly reacting to things beyond their control. It's what differentiates the great from the merely good. It's why fans get excited to see spur of the moment decision making under extreme pressure and how it plays out on the track. Its what makes the sport great and not merely good.


It's a game...(101)

You want a reaction by asking to insert the incidents ... if during a race you have an incident the only reaction you can have is that of your face like this: 😨...because it's GAME OVER. Where is your reaction?
What you think you want does not agree with what you want to do ... if you want to react in a GAME (102) you must have PLAYABLE factors...

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medal 5002 Super Mod
3 years 345 days ago
I had to have a little laugh to myself when I saw this on the league wall. I justify posting it here because it's not really off-topic, it demonstrates the frustration at having your race ruined through no fault of your own.

Anyway, it seems that what we need is vague, unspecified race defining events over which we have no control because it makes the racing more exciting. That is, right up to the point that an unexpected race defining event happens and then we get all upset...



So does this mean what we actually want is unexpected events over which we have no control, just as long as they happen to someone else?

A good manager would have a contingency plan for being kicked out of the race viewer. A couple of years ago it used to happen quite regularly. If you normally run your race from a browser it is advisable to also have the App running on your phone because if you get kicked out of either there is always a fall-back position. But I suppose that's just my OCD kicking in.
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medal 6770 Super Mod
3 years 345 days ago
Ideas of crashes, driver mistakes, cars breaking down are amazing. Unfortunately I don't see any reasonable way to introduce it without using a probabilistic factor in which those events happen or not.

I'll challenge you to give an idea of how to implement such events without using a probability.
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medal 5002
3 years 345 days ago (Last edited by Antonio Ascari 3 years 345 days ago)
You’re talking about not only race-defining but also season-defining events over which you would have no control.

This game cant be reloaded, if that would happen to you, season over. Or season lost to your rival.

As we all are great at losing races πŸ˜„ i think such events would only lead to a massive amount of managers leaving mid season or leaving the game altogether.

Because leaving mid season is something in real racing wouldn’t happen that fast. But this is a game where leaving is easy.

So you can simulate real F1 but this still is a game, based upon us: players. We are the real core of this game, us spending money to get tokens.

So simulating real life is nice, but it will only go as far as we, managers will support it and i think random season defining events is a bridge too far for a lot of us
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medal 5000
3 years 345 days ago
Based on driver stats, push level, and car condition.  There could also be a factor of driver fatigue and track difficulty.  When you combine this all together and tire wear to create a formula that will then increase the odds of crashing.

It uses probability, but a little bit more conditional.
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medal 4855 Moderator
3 years 345 days ago
You can't use driver stats. If you do Rookie races, especially first season with their 1-2 stats everywhere, would look like destruction derbies, the driver getting furthest before crashing wins. Not a very motivation building start into the game.

Also push level is a bad idea as long as it's the only setting a manager has available to keep temperature in the tyres. Else we're doomed in winter on some tracks (and other limited to Super Soft only use) and Monaco all year round. You don't push and crash driving slowly because the tyres are cold, you push and crash driving fast because you pushed (on still not that warm tyres) or you choose middle ground for a chance to bet which one of the two will cause your crash. Great.
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medal 4908
3 years 345 days ago
Ok, maybe driver crashes isn't best idea at this moment becase of keeping the temperature of tyers in (extreme example) Monaco in winter. But, I think that engine failures and engine wear effected by engine mode will be ok, I guess, I think, I don't know 
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medal 5013
3 years 345 days ago (Last edited by Leo Yeo 3 years 345 days ago)
CRAZY idea from me:
Stop engines and cars from being able to go 4-5 races without needing to be repaired. Everyone repairs their cars and engines every GP, so you literally never have to worry about reliability in any GP. Instead make engines and car last just over an entire race distance (or just under 2*) on normal push, make push level more influential on engine and car wear. Then surviving the race becomes a skill, not trivial. Tyre temps not being right will be part of the challenge. Either that or add a rich, normal, lean option for fuel mix, although I'm not a massive fan of that.

Remove yellows etc, from being activated in the final 3 laps, just as how boost isn't allowed for the first 3. We can pretend the stewards want a good end to the race or something lol.

Remove the daily reward that allows you to get a free engine (to remove randomness or luck and unforeseen work arounds).

Remove car health or engine health from the game or combine them, having them both separated gives the image of more complexity, but doesn't add anything. This will also allow us to remove one of reliability or cooling and make it simpler to improve what is a useless area. Would give people a bit of a debate on what choose for Monaco too!

And the final thing, to ensure back markers aren't ruining the GP, and this is easy, stop allowing managers with 0% health cars to race. If you are scared there won't be any racers, then your league is too inactive, simple.

I've not thought about how this would affect other tiers, failures would have to be taken a lot more seriously than they are now, massive warnings would be needed to accommodate for the new players. Practice must show engine wear with this update, players that can't race have to have a chance to at least try and make it to the end optimally
Would love to see what others have to say about this, it's a mad one 🀣

*if engines last for more than a GP, reduce the number of engines we get and ban buying engines or put a cap on it (I know the devs need to make this profitable). Essentially force us to conserve our engines throughout the season so that we aren't just putting new stuff in every GP.
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