Can iGP Support alter race results ruined by League Jumpers?

Hello,

I am running in the Inside Sim Racing Feeder Series league and we've had a few League Jumpers (lack of a better word) that have disrupted results and ruined possible points & statistics from those who finished below them, including myself.

They rob us of Pole Position results, Podium Results, Fastest Lap counts, and Wins, outright. It's very frustrating to work so hard and then have someone join your leage a day before the race only to wipe us clean.

I was hoping that the results they have ruined can be altered to reflect everyone that is in our league at LVL 6 or lower. Our league admin cannot always catch them, so by the time the race weekend begins, it is too late. We have had much higher rated players join for one game and ruin the results I previously stated. These are the ones we were unable to catch early:

Joshua Cloninger - EJC Motorsport (LVL 7/8)
Won Spanish & Fastest Lap GP -- After winning he has since been removed from the league. Although he doesn't look to be participating on iGP anymore? I believe our league admin, Greg Broz, contacted you guys about him, but I am not certain.

Bart Dexta - Dexta F1 team (LVL 9)
Pole Position at German GP - Had ability to easily win. He 'swore' that he wasn't league hopping but after everyone in our league was very vocal about his presence during the German GP he apologized and switched to rain tires to fall back into non-points-scoring position. He has since left and/or been removed.

[edit] Removed post regarding Aaron [/edit]

I've heard iGP is working to prevent this and honestly I'd have to say that there needs to be some sort of league rules that only permit certain levels when you join, and if you've completed a certain # of seasons under your belt.

As far as I am aware nothing is being done to stop league hoppers. Nothing really can be done, unless they introduce a new rule where you can't race in a new league until the start of the new season.. But that really isn't feasible as people could be waiting up to a month or longer to be able to race.

That is a complicated issue David and it's a bit difficult when the people concerned haven't actually broken any rules.

May I sugest that your host Greg, makes representation to Aaron on the helpdesk and this issue can be looked at for you.

Certainly up to him, I understsand. I'll see how he feels.

I guess I was asking if the results could be altered post-race. But I am guessing modifying results in your database or whatnot is not wise.

The reason we feel so stringent in the league is because, well, Greg was fastest and a much higher level than all of us when the league started. We were newbies with only a few races or 0 races of experience. So he honorably backed down and joined the ISR league where the faster managers end up. Since then we've had a good balance of learners and people picking up the pace. League Jumpers are not welcome :-/

When do you consider a player to be a League Jumper?

I just changed leagues, as there were only two people active at the end of the season. I did finish the season, then left and looked for another league. I would have xpected to be pretty much at the back of the field, as my car was "new", that is without season improvements. To my surprise my drivers finished somehwere 8-10th, with two players (4 drivers) being much faster than the field. Pretty much top half of the field, and certainly in the points.

I didn't choose the league on level, but based on the days theyy run, and the number of active managers. So I might have been even more to the top, if I had - by chance - choosen a league with "younger" drivers.  

That is not to say that League Jumpers are not a problem, or that they are not abusing the system, but there can be a good reason to change leagues, and how do you choose a league of your level, and not one above or below your level?

You can add a password to your league, or kick them right before the race when they join. 

Yes I know that the password option was going to be tossed about. The problem, is that we are, in a sense, tied to Inside Sim Racing and making it appear as a locked league puts up a wall and we want to have full leagues. We just can't believe people pull these stunts.

As david noted. Only 1 person was kind enough to back off when they were confronted.

For the time being, I have password locked the league.

Some very good points made in this thread.
It is difficult to know how best to deal with this as some managers see it as a problem and others don't.
It has been discussed many times before but no concensus has been arrived at, although some changes were implimented to help limit the 'damage' - tier capping for example.

I have been with this game since the start and have purposely remained an 'average' manager.  I worry sometimes when I change leagues if I will be too good for the league I join (unlikely!!) and ruin the fun of the races.  However I do understand the anger that 'league hoppers' can cause.

I also suggest the password option - and work very hard telling people why it is locked - something in the league description is all you need.  You then have a lot of control on who gets in and who doesn't.

I really think that Rookie series should not have KERS. That would solve much of the problem. I guess that means that Rookie would need to be capped at 5 or 6.

Someone that is rookie and lvl 6-8 probably (not ALWAYS) has KERS and should have a good knowledge of the game as well as set-ups. Those that are under lvl 4 do not have the database of set up and cannot have KERS. This creates a situation where the high lvl rookies can go anywhere they want and dominate. Maybe you almost need a "Rookie+" or "Veteran" tier

As I understand the tiers are:
Rookie 0-8
Pro 9-12
Elite 13-20

My Idea:
Rookie is 0-5
Pro is 6-9
Veteran is 10-14
Elite is 15-20

OR
Rookie is 0-5
Rookie+ is 6-9
Pro is 10-14
Elite is 15-20

Or maybe give hosts option of enabling or disabling KERS for the Rookie tier. Just like the schedule is fixed unless you start a new league

Yes, I quite like what you are suggesting Greg.  This might be something worth looking at in the future to make the levels in the game more refined.
I think (in the past) there had been discussion about tiers within tiers, but it was too complicated and a bit cumbersome for a new game.  However the game has moved on so I think this kind of discussion is useful.

Even though none of the leagues I've been really involved in have been affected by league hopping, I have wondered about the effects of KERS on Rookie tiers. With the two leagues I race in right now, one of the Rookie tiers is reasonably well populated, but not everyone has KERS. I think the situation there came about just due to manager activity/inactivity. Both leagues I race in were originally private, and we had some managers who performed well and got promoted and stayed more active, and some who didn't perform well and started not to attend races while still fielding cars. You have to perform well to get promoted, so we had a few managers who were "experienced" (had done a good number of races) but were still in Rookie because they hadn't yet done well enough to get a promotion place and jump to Pro. Now one or two teams in the Rookie tier have KERS and the rest do not, and the KERS-equipped teams tend to dominate.

This also however, can work backwards. I started my B-team to help populate one of the leagues I'm in, but I got promoted to Pro in one season, which put me in with a bunch of teams that had a KERS I couldn't get yet (It takes about two seasons of racing to have enough experience to get KERS if I remember correctly), so for a while I was running around near the top until everyone else started running KERS laps and I'd drop from like 4th to 8th in the last two laps.

I agree perhaps KERS shouldn't be enabled until one reaches Pro, or perhaps allow it for Rookie. The problem is how do you change this after the fact given that there are Rookie teams that already have KERS?

@James
This is a very good summery of the situation.
I don't think it is something that can be implimented by changing what is already happening.  Whatever is introduced, over time, should have the desired effect.

omg...really?????....pw your league...that ends it right there....and complaining about ppl with higher lvls and having kers...hell we got one of those in our league and hes not always winning...since we've all caught up to his tactics and better know him...so if u dont like someone in your league with kers and you dont...dont let them in the league.....wow....simple fixes that dont require a high school education to figure out.....kers isnt a big deal...u can beat ppl with kers even if you dont have it!!!!!!!!

Thats kinda the wrong attitude to take, I mean its frustrating that they are faster than you but you really don't know their motivation for joining the league in the first place.
Also you can see thier levels that hardly means they are robbing you, it means they have been playing the game longer than you, have better drivers, have pit stops planned out are are running a smart race/they are better then you and getting places that reflect that.

Alright since I've raced with him Im going to defend Aaron Lynch - Monster Energy Motorsport (LVL 7). The reason you call Aaron a league hoper is because he was racing with us when we switched the league from a 1 car league to a 2 car league and thus ran out of space so sadly some people (Aaron) had to find a new home. He posted on the old league that he joined an inactive league and then got kicked from another for being fast, I assume that was you guys. Personally I'd love to have him back in our league as he made it competitive and it made it a challenge to try and beat his driver.

The simple fact is that no one is really unbeatable, as Aaron Cummings said. I am in the league with him we have a manager who is level 6/7, yet in the last two races both my drivers have taken 1/2 because I have run better pit stops and he has made some mistakes. The field in this game narrows pretty quickly and if you invest minimal time by level 4 you should be able to challenge them quickly.

I agree some minor tweaks could make this better for younger drivers but what you seem to be doing in punishing people who are trying to get in an active league simply beacasue they have been playing longer than you and as a result are better managers and have better drivers.

Now obviously its up to you, if you want your league really close and only open to your friends then password it, but if you have an open league you have to accept that there are people out there just looknig for an active league who are better than you. 

Last thing league hopping really isn't that profitable as you have to pay to leave and really can only get 4-5 mill from a single race.

Leagues are seperated at tier levels with 3 level caps.
[list]
[*]Rookie - Capped at level 8
[*]Pro - Capped at level 12
[*]Elite - Capped at 20
[/list]
Theoritically, a level 1 can still participate in Elite as there is no minimum level cap for a team, however it's not possible to be promoted twice without leveling up.


To David's point. These guys are doing nothing wrong by being in your league at level 7-9. Their levels will automatically be capped to 8 if they're higher than 8. With these caps they're legitimate competitors and shouldn't be discouraged as such.

I doubt a customizable level cap can be included in the league management due to the ability of generating exploits.

I see all this complaining about me, it says nowhere where you have to be lvl 6 or lower, I joined waiting for a league that I was going to join but became full. You say all this about exploiting here you have no requirements whatsoever so in my case I am free to join and race in this league. All this complaining over me being a level to high is just silly when actually the league I am in doesn't have the right to say I'm a level too high and it isn't there in the description, I know I'm repeated myself but technically I am allowed to race.

And all of this about staying in leagues for 1-2 races as I shall explain:
League for League seekers had folded
Sam Fuller folded for lack of managers
Formula F folded because manager quit igp and left the league
And Nordgar TV folded because we wanted to switch to 2 drivers and a new league was created which was filled up before I had enough time to join
Hope that's pretty clear and I feel I've explained this situation to the best I can.

You saw Vettel dominate seasons 2010-2012 you didn't see any of the drivers get angered over this? This is a similar case from what I am reading.

Sorry this has been so long in coming. I don’t know how many drafts of this thing I have written and then scrapped. Do I make a condescending post? Do I try to mediate? Do I get pissed? Do I just shoot from the hip and use all the foul language I can? What bothers me is that I am not representing MY league but a league that is tied to another website run by people I know and used to race with at one time before life and death so drastically got in the way.

I saw this game and thought it would be cool to play an online race manager. Then I found out the ISR guys were doing a review and they loved the game. Unfortunately with 2 car teams, you can only have so many people. So the idea was born to create this feeder series that would double a sort of a waiting list should the ranks in the main league start to fall off, which is understandable since we race once a week and some people may want to do more than that. So I volunteered to host the feeder. We started out with just a handful of people in the first days and I worked to get it to 17 by the time the first race went off.  Soon we had a near full field of 32 drivers/teams, but as is often the case, people lose interest and we were looking at a core of about 28 active teams and about 4 slots we could not keep filled actively.

I would clear the “deadwood” out in the middle of the week and the spots would sit vacant until minutes before the lockdown. When I was racing in the league, I was able to boot them right back out before lockdown. Now that I have moved to the main series, it is not as easy and I am in the middle of my prep for that race.
I can hear it now: password the league, make someone else host. Great. Thanks, for the advice Captains Obvious. However, when you are supposed to be a gathering point for people coming from another site, it is really not in the best interest to appear to be closed off, and we wanted to have a large a field as possible. Have you seen a race where 30+ different people/teams/cars are all charging into T1? It makes the game that much more fun and enjoyable.

As for Mr. Cummings, it may be that no one is unbeatable, but when the best, most experienced driver is LVL 4 and a LVL 8 pops in at the last minute, do you REALLY think that that LVL 8 is going to lose? What you speak of is a group that is fairly close together in terms of skill level and the KERS enabled team does not know how to best utilize it OR the KERS manager does not show for the race and the driver wastes it.

Yea this a damn long post, get over it. Also, before you accuse the OP of sour grapes, realize that he is LEADING the series, the problems is that it WAS a close battle for 1-3. Now he is pulling away because of these “antics”. What we still can’t believe is that some people need to win so badly that they resort to this garbage.
Since Mr. O’Rourke is willing to defend Mr. Lynch, I can see that the intent was not fully malicious nor did Mr. Lynch join at the last minute, as of this post, it appears you joined 12 days ago which would have been a Monday. Since no one decided that this be best kept in a more private venue ( I am here, and I am ACTIVE) and since Mr. Lynch has stated he intends to leave this league anyway when a spot opens, he will be removed.  Mr. Seward will be sanctioned by the league. Anyone has any issues, send me a PM

Greg, I am not resorting to any kind of garbage or "antics". My reason for posting this is actually not because I am leading the league but because we'd actually have a close fight in points if you do the math without late-joiners. For the races where I scored poorly and my opponents scored better, they'd have much better points to match with me and others and we'd have a very close season. Hell, I'd probably not even be the top player. I want a close battle, and I am sure many others as well. This is my very first season and I have done nothing but be a sporting player. But it's important to know the following:

The whole idea of this topic here is to see if iGP is capable of modifying results post-race. I never took it upon myself to try and have our league adjusted without you being involved. Even more so, it seems strange to have players join a race, then leave, and skew points for everyone else that is trying to score the best result. This topic is a question for iGP, and I got my answers.

Secondly, I have felt that it's not our league's "problem", but instead it seems to be a problem with iGP level system and I feel there could be join race requirements. Your suggestions and overall the good debate here is lovely. But some that participate here and judge the simple idea of "league hopping" really are not understanding the problem here. I enjoy some healthy game design discussion but with a peanut gallery in the back, it's not easy to do. So I'll refrain. Again, great ideas/suggestsions Greg.

Thirdly, as some have already proposed... We should have just passworded the league a long time ago, maybe mid-season? I can understand we wanted newbie players and a full grid of active users, but that is going to be a never ending battle of sifting out the active and unactive players. Full grids are nice but it seemed, to me at least, that the league goal we (other league players) have all tried to accomplish here is to have a fair and even field with no disruptions from players that were a much higher level. Sure people in this topic can argue that someone of a higher level can be easily beaten, but in some ways I have to disagree. We work hard at a low level as newbies, tire management is not as easy, and we make mistakes. Some of these players join and don't even need a 2D viewer + have hot tires 24/7 and still pull away. That's impossible for us to accomplish.

Anyways, I'll be rambling on and making this worse when viewed by others, and that was not my intent, but I really wanted to see what iGP was capable of. I'll be on my way and not be the only one in our league that believes we have something special and want to see the season end on good terms. (And I think it will)