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Fuel and free pratice

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Michael Craig
1 year 328 days ago

Simone

Michael

Yes maybe I am not understanding. Out of curiosity could you tell me what your FE was? I will run it through my calculations and see what I get, might help with my understanding.

I will expand as I'm disappearing for the night soon.

I'm assuming that your FE was around 65

I would adjust 2.56 per lap to 2.66, this says I would need 109.2L to complete the race, so I would fuel 110L.

You are saying you experienced 2.69, which is 0.03 more than I would have expected. And you are saying the same formula you have works properly for other circuits.

Therefore you say that something is wrong with china's calculation across a race distance.

And maybe due to the pit lane adding distance to the lap is your suggestion as to why?

Where is the finish line in China compared to the start grid, could that be a factor?

My FE is 56 not 65.

I wrote in my first post about lenght of pit lane: however 2.7 is fuel for lap also in the first laps and starting from Pole position my first lap should be shorter...
This could be an addition, but it is not enough.

After race I made the same calculation as you. With +0,1 instead of +0,09 because I noticed it in another race. However as you are agree. Also 110 was not enough.
If 110 were enough, I would not write this post, but they weren’t enough.

However tomorrow I had to run again in China but with 100% instead of 75%... and with 2 drivers . I will try both additions for understandings. HoweveR FE is not the same... so I don’t know if the experiment will be right

Right ok, then I think I agree, the response of 2.56L from free practice for FE of 56 at PL3 is too low. I would have expected 2.59. 2.70 at FE 56 does tie in with my expectations for PL5 at 56FE however.

Interesting, and also interestingly. I would expect 2.56 to be the fuel required at Push level 2.

Did you get 2.56L for all 5 of your practice laps. I sometimes do see a variance in the amount but 0.03 is more than I recall ever experiencing.

Sergiy Nevidomo
1 year 328 days ago

Simone

Dick

Simone

Pl3??? Then the problem is much worse because today in China I calculated at pl2 and I finished the race with 0.2 of fuel… Calculating it at 3 I would have run out of fuel….

That’s strange since pl3 calculations work perfectly for me

Tomorrow I have 2.44 litres. I had to do 55 laps: what do you suggest as fuel?

136.884l on pl4(push level on medium tire) or just ≈137, but I would fill 1.5L more to warm up the tires?

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
1 year 328 days ago

The relationship between push level and fuel consumption is not linear, so you can't just add 0.XX litres per increment in PL, if you do you will underfuel for PL5.

In an online league just be aware if you run half a lap at PL1 and the other half at PL5 the average across the lap IS NOT PL3 because of the non linear relationship I mentioned above, it is closer to PL4.

In offline leagues where PL is fixed you can work out the fuel very accurately, you just need to collect lots of data to determine the relationship between FE / PL / Fuel Consumption then you can ignore practice lap data.

Because driver errors are enabled for practice laps it is not unusual to get some variation in reported fuel consumption.

Finally remember that even a small miscalcuation can have severe consequences. In a refuelling allowed league it isn't usually a huge problem, at worst you might run out as you approach the pit lane (which incidentally may screw other people's races) but in a 100% no refuelling race an error of 1/100th litre per lap on a 50 lap race would equate to having half a litre too little fuel.

John Doe
1 year 328 days ago

Michael

Yes maybe I am not understanding. Out of curiosity could you tell me what your FE was? I will run it through my calculations and see what I get, might help with my understanding.

I will expand as I'm disappearing for the night soon.

I'm assuming that your FE was around 65

I would adjust 2.56 per lap to 2.66, this says I would need 109.2L to complete the race, so I would fuel 110L.

You are saying you experienced 2.69, which is 0.03 more than I would have expected. And you are saying the same formula you have works properly for other circuits.

Therefore you say that something is wrong with china's calculation across a race distance.

And maybe due to the pit lane adding distance to the lap is your suggestion as to why?

Where is the finish line in China compared to the start grid, could that be a factor?

Reading again what you wrote: it is clear that there is a mistake in fuel indicated in free practice !

I am sure at 99%.
This.means that this is a bug!

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
1 year 328 days ago

Simone

At FE 56 in China my fuel model says 2.59 litres/lap for PL3. If your practice laps were reporting 2.56 then yes it was under by about 3/100ths of a litre (30 ml) per lap an error of -1.2% which (as I said earlier) could be explained by driver errors.

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
1 year 328 days ago

Simone

Dick

Simone

Pl3??? Then the problem is much worse because today in China I calculated at pl2 and I finished the race with 0.2 of fuel… Calculating it at 3 I would have run out of fuel….

That’s strange since pl3 calculations work perfectly for me

Tomorrow I have 2.44 litres. I had to do 55 laps: what do you suggest as fuel?

What is you FE for this account?
Is it offline and therefore fixed PL?
Is it also China or a different circuit?

John Doe
1 year 328 days ago (Last edited by John Doe 1 year 327 days ago)

Kevin

Simone

At FE 56 in China my fuel model says 2.59 litres/lap for PL3. If your practice laps were reporting 2.56 then yes it was under by about 3/100ths of a litre (30 ml) per lap an error of -1.2% which (as I said earlier) could be explained by driver errors.

As i wrote in the first post : i did 2 laps onnfree practice on M tyre and they were both 2.56.

So it.means that my driver made Twice the same mistake!
I remind me.that one time (but I don't remember circuit) made 5 laps: there were 4 times the same and one different (0,02litres). I used fuel of the 4 laps... but the right in the same is the fifth!

However you wrote that fuel for pl3 is 2.59, while I have 2.56, but for me 2.56 is for pl2 ...so for pl5 they should be the same... but how many? 2.65 or 2.66 or 2.69 or 2.7?

We are playing a managerial f1 race: if practice lap gives wrong fuel... how can we play without refuel? (Cit.)

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
1 year 327 days ago

For China at PL3 with 56 FE I calculate 2.59 litres per lap
At PL2 it is 2.56 litres
At PL5 it is 2.70 litres

So at 100% race distance you would need to load
PL2 = 142 litres
PL3 = 143 litres
PL5 = 149 litres

BTW I am not arguing, I agree that if you believe your practice lap data (2.56 litres/lap) and run the race offline at fixed PL3 it would indeed leave you short of fuel by about half a lap.

This slight under reporting was never an issue before the no refuelling rule was introduced because people rarely ran less than 4 stints in a 100% race. Now we have to fuel for the entire race even a very small error in practice reporting can leave you without enough fuel to complete the race.

If you are using practice lap data it would be sensible to load some extra fuel to compensate for the small error, but take notes and use the information you gather to better inform you going forward.

We are playing a managerial f1 race: if practice lap gives wrong fuel... how can we play without refuel? (Cit.)

As a manager you now understand that the practice lap data is sketchy (it's the same for tyre wear BTW) so you need to compensate for this when determining how much fuel to load. It's classic risk management, how close to the edge you are prepared to run.

If you tell me your FE for tomorrow's 75% China race I will tell you how much fuel I think you will need.

John Doe
1 year 327 days ago

Kevin

For China at PL3 with 56 FE I calculate 2.59 litres per lap
At PL2 it is 2.56 litres
At PL5 it is 2.70 litres

So at 100% race distance you would need to load
PL2 = 142 litres
PL3 = 143 litres
PL5 = 149 litres

BTW I am not arguing, I agree that if you believe your practice lap data (2.56 litres/lap) and run the race offline at fixed PL3 it would indeed leave you short of fuel by about half a lap.

This slight under reporting was never an issue before the no refuelling rule was introduced because people rarely ran less than 4 stints in a 100% race. Now we have to fuel for the entire race even a very small error in practice reporting can leave you without enough fuel to complete the race.

If you are using practice lap data it would be sensible to load some extra fuel to compensate for the small error, but take notes and use the information you gather to better inform you going forward.

We are playing a managerial f1 race: if practice lap gives wrong fuel... how can we play without refuel? (Cit.)

As a manager you now understand that the practice lap data is sketchy (it's the same for tyre wear BTW) so you need to compensate for this when determining how much fuel to load. It's classic risk management, how close to the edge you are prepared to run.

If you tell me your FE for tomorrow's 75% China race I will tell you how much fuel I think you will need.

Don't you think that this things should be explained better?

There are.not so many races run at pl5... China is.one of them.

I would like to know which is right fuel for pl4 (you didn't write it).

About tyre: they are not like fuel for lap because tolerance is not the same: tyre is write with only one number after comma so 2.5 could be 2.46 or 2.54. While fuel has 2 numbers after comma so 2.50 should be 2.496 or 2,504 ... so a mistake of 0.01 couls be acceptable, not more. 0,03 litres or more of mistake is not Risk Management: is working in a wrong way!

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
1 year 327 days ago

OK Simone here's the fuel for an offline (fixed PL) 100% race at China with a FE of 56:
PL1: 2.544 litres/lap = 140 litres
PL2: 2.565 litres/lap = 141 litres (risky 142 safer)
PL3: 2.596 litres/lap = 143 litres
PL4: 2.638 litres/lap = 145 litres (risky 146 safer)
PL5: 2.700 litres/lap = 149 litres

As for your original post saying practice lap data is bugged, have you considered that it may in fact be absolutely accurate? Let me explain...

We already know that the weight of fuel is taken into consideration by the simulator because a heavy car will be slower than a light car and as the race progresses every lap the times get faster as the fuel burns off (up until tyre degradation overcomes the benefit of a lighter car).

For a practice lap it is not unreasonable to assume that the car is fuelled for only three laps, an out lap, a timed lap and an in lap. So theoretically it would make sense that practice lap fuel consumption would be lower than a car which is fuelled for an entire race (140+ litres/kg).

The only time in a race that the car is roughly the same weight as it is in practice trim are the final three or four laps of the stint.

Remaining fuel in the post race data is unfortunately only reported to 1 decimal place so seeing a slight decrease in fuel consumption lap by lap isn't really possible. However, looking at the race data sheets for my 75% no refuelling race in Austria yesterday I see that for lap 1 (soft tyres no boost available) the car consumed 2.0 litres of fuel but for the final lap (medium tyres, PL5 and boosting) I only used 1.8 litres.

This suggests that overall weight of car is influential on fuel consumption and supports the theory that practice lap consumption will be lower than consumption averaged over an entire race. Obviously the longer the stint the more inaccurate will be the practice data.

The complexity and thought processes in this game is what has kept me playing it for eight years. If the game told you everything to three decimal places it would be a simple calculation, you wouldn't need to think about other stuff that might have an influence and IMHO the game would be worse for it.

If you want to make sure you don't run out of fuel either accept the default fuel load in the strategy tab or work it out from practice lap data and add a few litres for safety.

John Doe
1 year 327 days ago

Kevin. It is clear that free practice is correct with your at pl2. (There is a difference of 0.005 litres and it is acceptable).
The big difference is caused by push 5 that is like a push 6.
I understand what you explain however I think that this is cuased by the fact that push 5 in offline is really rare and this causednsome mistakes.

However I can confirn you that 2.7 is fuel for lap since first lap till the end.

In any case I think that if fuel.is only decided By RC ,and there is a table.this must be explained to all because it is not correct that someone has this information otherwise for new players it could be impossibile to understand... don't you think?

I have another question to you:
Malesya 75% water 3.2mm RC56. (Push 1)
How many litres i need for all the race? is fuel the same for dry and wet race?

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
1 year 327 days ago (Last edited by Kevin Bissell 1 year 327 days ago)

Yes fuel is the same for dry and wet.

Malaysia, 56FE, PL1: = 2.588 litres/lap = 106.11 litres, rounds to 107 litres.

If you increase your FE to 58 you will get away with 106 litres.

Edit.
As for it not being correct for someone to have this information, I only have it because I collected the fuel consumption, PL and FE design data for 4 years then analysed it in a spreadsheet. I got no privileged information from the developers and everyone else can do the same if they have the desire to do so.

John Doe
1 year 327 days ago

Kevin

Yes fuel is the same for dry and wet.

Malaysia, 56FE, PL1: = 2.588 litres/lap = 106.11 litres, rounds to 107 litres.

If you increase your FE to 58 you will get away with 106 litres.

Edit.
As for it not being correct for someone to have this information, I only have it because I collected the fuel consumption, PL and FE design data for 4 years then analysed it in a spreadsheet. I got no privileged information from the developers and everyone else can do the same if they have the desire to do so.

The fact is that it looks that you are not the only that have this information ... but maybe is like you write: everyone could make the same research.

However in Malesya i made as usual: i Had 2.61 in free practice: so with push 1 I considered 2,58 × 41 and 105,78 is the fuel necessary. So I run with 106 and i arrived with 0.2litres...

However difference is very little. So it is ok.

Probably problem is only with Push 5 that I have not enough past experiences

Michael Craig
1 year 327 days ago

If it helps. I’ve been collecting data for well over a year as well. I’m a big spreadsheet nerd ?. But I definitely have a way to go before I fully understand things.

The heavy car burning more fuel than a light car is an interesting concept. I have not run much in the no refuelling races so I’ve never even considered that as a possibility. Any excess burn I observed early on I assumed it was due to higher push level required in general due to heavy cars being slower.

Back to the drawing board for me ???

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
1 year 327 days ago

Thank you for the feedback Simone. I know my model is very slightly conservative, I prefer it this way because it reduces the risk of running out of fuel. It doesn't surprise me therefore that over the course of a 75% race I over estimated the fuel by 0.31 litres.

This is the data I used for the model. As you can see some of the data points are not quite sitting on the best fit line but they are close enough so I have found the model to be reliable for the last year or two. Because of this I never bother to look at the practice lap data but for the next few weeks I will monitor practice to compare with my model.

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
1 year 327 days ago

@Simone

Update for your information:
Tonight I race in Turkey. At my current FE design, my fuel consumption model suggests
PL2 - 2.387 litres/lap
PL3 - 2.416 litres/lap

I have run 10 practice laps (2 car team) and the reported fuel consumption is as follows:
3 laps at 2.39 litres
6 laps at 2.40 litres
1 lap at 2.41 litres

Wholly Crap
1 year 327 days ago (Last edited by Wholly Crap 1 year 327 days ago)

I can't believe people still struggle with fuel loads etc, obviously temp and tyres used will effect fuel usage. If you practice on SS but race on M the fuel consumption will be different even if using the same push levels, this can normally be seen in the practice laps. I do practice laps using the tyres I'll use in the race then work out fuel load for that, just add or minus fuel based on what your strategy is.

It's easy to save fuel during the race by fluctuating push levels, I change levels normally 6-10 times per lap, if I see fuel use is higher than normal I just reduce push for a few laps so I can atleast finish.

If you see your using too much fuel and will run out, you can stop and put softer tyres on which will then reduce push levels, this will save fuel again getting you to the finish line.

It's a management game and fuel quantity is part of it.

Dick Dastardly
1 year 327 days ago

Wholly

I can't believe people still struggle with fuel loads etc, obviously temp and tyres used will effect fuel usage. If you practice on SS but race on M the fuel consumption will be different even if using the same push levels, this can normally be seen in the practice laps. I do practice laps using the tyres I'll use in the race then work out fuel load for that, just add or minus fuel based on what your strategy is.

It's easy to save fuel during the race by fluctuating push levels, I change levels normally 6-10 times per lap, if I see fuel use is higher than normal I just reduce push for a few laps so I can atleast finish.

If you see your using too much fuel and will run out, you can stop and put softer tyres on which will then reduce push levels, this will save fuel again getting you to the finish line.

It's a management game and fuel quantity is part of it.

It’s an offline race so fuel load needs to be as tight as possible. That’s why most rely on spreadsheets and record keeping rather than practice laps which have the risk of driver error. It’s different in live racing as you can adjust as go along although I know managers who use a similar approach in live as well.

Simone Zarri
1 year 326 days ago

Kevin

Simone

Dick

Simone

Pl3??? Then the problem is much worse because today in China I calculated at pl2 and I finished the race with 0.2 of fuel… Calculating it at 3 I would have run out of fuel….

That’s strange since pl3 calculations work perfectly for me

Tomorrow I have 2.44 litres. I had to do 55 laps: what do you suggest as fuel?

What is you FE for this account?
Is it offline and therefore fixed PL?
Is it also China or a different circuit?

China offline FE 50

Prophet Vik
1 year 326 days ago (Last edited by Prophet Vik 1 year 326 days ago)

Simone

This is not the first time that it happended ... but this time it happened to "a lot of teams":
How we can run a race without re-fuel if fuel indicated in free pratice is wrong?

The circuit is China.
I can think that pit lane is longer than stay on circuit but fuel is already wrong in the first laps and I Was in pole position!
In free pratice fuel was 2.56 for lap....but it was 2,7 during race. Ok. I was on max push... but 0.14 litres of difference is too much: there were necessary 2 litres more.
In some other circuit with max push , (Hungary for example) if I add 0.14litres , i will arrive with 2 litres more... crazy

I’ve been using the following calculation for a while, the difference between practice and full push in the race is 5%, so if you’re running 2.92 in practice the max push level fuel use would be 2.92 x 1.05 = 3.07, now where the game really can catch you out is that it seems to round the fuel use in game to the nearest 0.1 litres, so on longer tracks the difference in race can be 0.2 litres per lap between neutral and full push. In this example 2.92 rounds to 2.9, 3.07 rounds to 3.1. This effect is noticeable on longer tracks as they inherently use more fuel per lap so a 5% difference makes a bigger impact.

In your case the fuel use was 2.56 in practice, leading to 2.688 for full push if you use a 5% increase, which the game rounds to 2.7 in the race. An even neutral push level would be calculated at 2.6 in the race as it rounds to the nearest 0.1

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