Incident

Dave Benton
5 years 171 days ago

Kevin

Here we go again Dave, I'm responding to Chris's post but you feel obliged to chip in.

Up until now, nowhere in this thread have I criticised you personally so please don't accuse me of crying or tell me to "Man Up". I just want to enjoy a game where having spent a lot of time and effort building a team, working out an optimum strategy and doing my best in live race management, my efforts are rewarded. If I lose to someone under these circumstances I don't mind, the reason they have beaten me is they are a better manager. You're presumably not very good at the game, 6 points in 14 races at Level 18 is nothing to write home about. But instead of working on improving your game you would rather the developers introduce a feature that would have the potential to make the best managers cars crash out to give you a chance. Personally I'd feel a little inadequate if I needed others to endure random crashes to allow me to win.

I race once every 24 hours, I look forward to a race where I can pit my wits against other likeminded people and enjoy a little banter in race chat. I'm not going to be very happy if my race lasts 5 minutes and then I am forced to spend the next 40 minutes spectating because of some random event. I guarantee if this happened on a regular basis many experienced managers who have supported this game for years would would quit, and in my humble opinion that would be a bad thing.

Whatever your reason for wanting cars to crash I really don't care. I honestly think you're in the minority and in any case you're banging on about a feature which a few years ago Jack himself said he had no intention of introducing.

Once again Lording it over lesser mortals. "You're presumably not very good". You have no idea whether or not the league I am in is competitive, and all results are relative. No absolutes.

But to the point. Sports aren't like that! Life isn't always fair, but luck tends to balance out in the long run. If you don't like that, you don't like sport. Try sudoku or chess, or something abstract like that. This sim does not yet have this element of the sport it simulates. I hope it improves and becomes more like the fascinating sport it is based on, you don't, you want a clean abstract game, well there are plenty, but life isn't tidy, it's messy. Sports aren't played on paper, they are played out in the real world and a sports simulation, as it improves should get closer and closer to that experience. A simulation should outgrow the simple abstractions and embrace the chaotic nature of reality giving it's players a chance to vicariously put themselves on the pit wall as their contender suffers a failure of a tiny engine part made in a factory thousands of miles away and picked out of a batch to go into the engine, thus losing the championship. That is often what sport is like.

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Gert Rose Super Mod
5 years 171 days ago

Dave

<snip> The race itself is the dullest part of the game for me, <snip>

That statement can mean two things: OR you urgently need to find a better league where races are exciting and need your attention the whole time to take the right decisions every lap in order to have a chance at the win, OR you don't understand how to manage a live race and you need random crashes to make it exciting (and that non-understanding could then explain also why you are close to the back of the standings in your league).

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Mattia Romano
5 years 171 days ago

Dave

Kevin

Here we go again Dave, I'm responding to Chris's post but you feel obliged to chip in.

Up until now, nowhere in this thread have I criticised you personally so please don't accuse me of crying or tell me to "Man Up". I just want to enjoy a game where having spent a lot of time and effort building a team, working out an optimum strategy and doing my best in live race management, my efforts are rewarded. If I lose to someone under these circumstances I don't mind, the reason they have beaten me is they are a better manager. You're presumably not very good at the game, 6 points in 14 races at Level 18 is nothing to write home about. But instead of working on improving your game you would rather the developers introduce a feature that would have the potential to make the best managers cars crash out to give you a chance. Personally I'd feel a little inadequate if I needed others to endure random crashes to allow me to win.

I race once every 24 hours, I look forward to a race where I can pit my wits against other likeminded people and enjoy a little banter in race chat. I'm not going to be very happy if my race lasts 5 minutes and then I am forced to spend the next 40 minutes spectating because of some random event. I guarantee if this happened on a regular basis many experienced managers who have supported this game for years would would quit, and in my humble opinion that would be a bad thing.

Whatever your reason for wanting cars to crash I really don't care. I honestly think you're in the minority and in any case you're banging on about a feature which a few years ago Jack himself said he had no intention of introducing.

Once again Lording it over lesser mortals. "You're presumably not very good". You have no idea whether or not the league I am in is competitive, and all results are relative. No absolutes.

But to the point. Sports aren't like that! Life isn't always fair, but luck tends to balance out in the long run. If you don't like that, you don't like sport. Try sudoku or chess, or something abstract like that. This sim does not yet have this element of the sport it simulates. I hope it improves and becomes more like the fascinating sport it is based on, you don't, you want a clean abstract game, well there are plenty, but life isn't tidy, it's messy. Sports aren't played on paper, they are played out in the real world and a sports simulation, as it improves should get closer and closer to that experience. A simulation should outgrow the simple abstractions and embrace the chaotic nature of reality giving it's players a chance to vicariously put themselves on the pit wall as their contender suffers a failure of a tiny engine part made in a factory thousands of miles away and picked out of a batch to go into the engine, thus losing the championship. That is often what sport is like.

A lot of us players don't want crashes in the game. That is that. iGP have no intention of adding it into the game, so why should they? A minor amount will want to have crashes in, because of maybe being able to jump up the order, or be able to embrace reality a little more. From what I've seen from this thread, is that the vast majority do not want crashes in the game. If everyone wanted crashes in the game, iGP would do that. But if theres little to no people wanting it, so it's not gonna happen in a million years. I play this game at a very competitive level, one team at 10000 rep and few others on the way there, so I would also be very pissed off if I lost the championship due to no fault of my own. Yeah that's life, but the better result of a season is who managed their team the best throughout the the season. Not luck. iGP will want to go the route of business, so they can get more resources to improve the game(at least that's what I think, but they will of course want to go a business route) and when they have the resources then we can start thinking about edited driver overtaking and live race looking more realistic being added. If you want crashes, this game is not for you.

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Kevin Bissell Super Mod
5 years 171 days ago

They say a picture paints a thousand words. Here's an example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Your race today, Japan is a couple of races from the end of the season so all teams should be more or less equal in terms of design. Now I understand why you want the better managers cars to crash. If I had results like this I'd most likely agree with you.

Qualifying:

Race:

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Dave Benton
5 years 171 days ago

Gert

Dave

<snip> The race itself is the dullest part of the game for me, <snip>

That statement can mean two things: OR you urgently need to find a better league where races are exciting and need your attention the whole time to take the right decisions every lap in order to have a chance at the win, OR you don't understand how to manage a live race and you need random crashes to make it exciting (and that non-understanding could then explain also why you are close to the back of the standings in your league).

Neither, I simply want to see more realistic racing and less videogame gimmicky. I have little interest in playing a powerup type racing videogame, but I would like to be able to maintain the illusion of reality that is the raison d'etre of a sports sim.

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Frank Thomas Moderator
5 years 170 days ago

Sorry, but if fully simulating a sport would turn a interesting and challenging game into a boring mess of endless politics, pay2win and random dice events then I gladly take the abstractions. Yes, reality isn't fair, but the good thing about games is that they can take the good bits to make their own reality.

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Dave Benton
5 years 170 days ago

Frank

Sorry, but if fully simulating a sport would turn a interesting and challenging game into a boring mess of endless politics, pay2win and random dice events then I gladly take the abstractions. Yes, reality isn't fair, but the good thing about games is that they can take the good bits to make their own reality.

Not suggesting that all the boring bits be simulated, just the things that differentiate a German GP 2019 from a French GP 2019. You know, the things that make an incident packed race so much more exciting than a boring dull procession. We currently have none of them in iGP. I'd like some. Wouldn't you?

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Greg Alexander
5 years 170 days ago

I'll probably be in the minority of veteran players by saying this, but I personally wouldn't mind having incidents in races. Of course I'd be at least mildly annoyed if it happened to me, but it's racing and sometimes that happens.

HOWEVER

It has to be inserted properly. It would require a ton of complex algorithms to determine what would or wouldn't constitute an incident at any given point, taking in factors such as track conditions, driver skills, how much room for error there is at a given turn, etc. For example, wet weather races would cause more incidents and offs than dry weather races. Tracks like Monaco and Singapore would cause more crashes due to there being little to no margin of error should a driver make a mistake. There's simply way too much that needs to be factored in as it pertains to having incidents.

All in all, factors like crashes and mechanical failures will always be a dividing point between newer players and more experienced ones, with newer players in favor of and veterans opposing. It's a sliding scale of realism vs. randomness, one which I can see both sides of the coin here. On one hand, it's a game, and not everything that happens in real life can be inserted into it. On the other, this whole idea of inserting realistic elements as nothing but promoting randomness is not only a lazy way of thinking, but hurts the development of the game in the long run. Also, I REALLY hate using the example of a potential incident costing someone the championship. That's a cop out if you ask me. There's 17 races in a season, meaning that any points lost due to an incident could've easily been made up by getting a few extra points in several other races.

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Dave Benton
5 years 170 days ago

Greg

I'll probably be in the minority of veteran players by saying this, but I personally wouldn't mind having incidents in races. Of course I'd be at least mildly annoyed if it happened to me, but it's racing and sometimes that happens.

HOWEVER

It has to be inserted properly. It would require a ton of complex algorithms to determine what would or wouldn't constitute an incident at any given point, taking in factors such as track conditions, driver skills, how much room for error there is at a given turn, etc. For example, wet weather races would cause more incidents and offs than dry weather races. Tracks like Monaco and Singapore would cause more crashes due to there being little to no margin of error should a driver make a mistake. There's simply way too much that needs to be factored in as it pertains to having incidents.

All in all, factors like crashes and mechanical failures will always be a dividing point between newer players and more experienced ones, with newer players in favor of and veterans opposing. It's a sliding scale of realism vs. randomness, one which I can see both sides of the coin here. On one hand, it's a game, and not everything that happens in real life can be inserted into it. On the other, this whole idea of inserting realistic elements as nothing but promoting randomness is not only a lazy way of thinking, but hurts the development of the game in the long run. Also, I REALLY hate using the example of a potential incident costing someone the championship. That's a cop out if you ask me. There's 17 races in a season, meaning that any points lost due to an incident could've easily been made up by getting a few extra points in several other races.

Good to hear a balanced approach rather than the somewhat condescending tone taken by a previous poster. I don't see the divide entirely as new vs vet players, but more between videogamers and sports fans. Those who love F1 and come here as it's the closest they can ever get to putting themselves in Christian Horner's shoes, will generally want to see the game's challenges mirror those of the real sport. The more abstractly-minded player simply wants a test of their ability to play the game better than their opposition, the actual context of what the game is, is, is actually secondary to the process. Chess is like that, it is in no way a simulation of war, but an abstract challenge. Tabletop minature wargaming is a simulation and is at the other end of the spectrum. That is the basic divide, in game terms.

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Kevin Bissell Super Mod
5 years 170 days ago

Greg

I'll probably be in the minority of veteran players by saying this, but I personally wouldn't mind having incidents in races. Of course I'd be at least mildly annoyed if it happened to me, but it's racing and sometimes that happens.

Hi Greg. Welcome to the debate. You'll probably find this hard to believe but I agree with you 100%. If you read this thread from the beginning (yep it's boring) I have on a number of occasions stated that I wouldn't have a problem if the developers introduced incidents. We already have real life weather that can throw us a curved ball and I would also welcome the introduction of safety cars. Incidents such as these, although random, affect everyone and therefore the manager that best adapts to the situation is going to do well. Safety cars would be a real leveller (excuse the pun) between the L20 teams and those who are many levels lower. There is a slight downside, it would further handicap non-attending managers unless advanced strategy were also updated to incorporate settings for safety cars.

What I have an issue with is random crashes that only affect one or two teams. The OP suggested purely random crashes during overtake manoeuvres and I honestly believe if this were to be introduced it would lead to some very heated posts on this forum and a number of top managers leaving the game.

Finally, regarding DB. Again if people take the time to read the thread from the beginning they will see that I debated my point without resorting to personal insults. Unfortunately he couldn't do the same, he accused me of being quote "A big powerful team arguing in self interest" and later went on to accuse me of being a cry baby and needing to man up. So it shouldn't come as a surprise to him that I eventually have enough of his attitude and respond in much the same manner.

At the end of the day, he doesn't seem to be able to accept that he's in the minority and that the developers have already stated they are not going to introduce random crashes. He has posted on a number of occasions that he doesn't like the game...

I think that the whole race day segment of the game is by far it's weakest point and is in need of a major revamp. The actual race might as well be abstracted like qualification at, for most teams.
Let's see more of the simulation and less of the gamey aspects.
I kinda hoped this was a management simulation, not just another racing game with added bits.
The race itself is the dullest part of the game for me, it needs making more immersive.
It'd be a shame if this game became just another racing videogame, they have something better than that with the potential to be even better if they ignore those wanting the game dumbing down.

I've been playing the game for four and a half years and still enjoy it. DB has been playing for seven or eight months and judging by his comments above he doesn't like it. So why doesn't he just stop playing and find a game he does like because he's never going to get his random crashes.

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Dave Benton
5 years 170 days ago

Kevin

Greg

I'll probably be in the minority of veteran players by saying this, but I personally wouldn't mind having incidents in races. Of course I'd be at least mildly annoyed if it happened to me, but it's racing and sometimes that happens.

Hi Greg. Welcome to the debate. You'll probably find this hard to believe but I agree with you 100%. If you read this thread from the beginning (yep it's boring) I have on a number of occasions stated that I wouldn't have a problem if the developers introduced incidents. We already have real life weather that can throw us a curved ball and I would also welcome the introduction of safety cars. Incidents such as these, although random, affect everyone and therefore the manager that best adapts to the situation is going to do well. Safety cars would be a real leveller (excuse the pun) between the L20 teams and those who are many levels lower. There is a slight downside, it would further handicap non-attending managers unless advanced strategy were also updated to incorporate settings for safety cars.

What I have an issue with is random crashes that only affect one or two teams. The OP suggested purely random crashes during overtake manoeuvres and I honestly believe if this were to be introduced it would lead to some very heated posts on this forum and a number of top managers leaving the game.

Finally, regarding DB. Again if people take the time to read the thread from the beginning they will see that I debated my point without resorting to personal insults. Unfortunately he couldn't do the same, he accused me of being quote "A big powerful team arguing in self interest" and later went on to accuse me of being a cry baby and needing to man up. So it shouldn't come as a surprise to him that I eventually have enough of his attitude and respond in much the same manner.

At the end of the day, he doesn't seem to be able to accept that he's in the minority and that the developers have already stated they are not going to introduce random crashes. He has posted on a number of occasions that he doesn't like the game...

I think that the whole race day segment of the game is by far it's weakest point and is in need of a major revamp. The actual race might as well be abstracted like qualification at, for most teams.
Let's see more of the simulation and less of the gamey aspects.
I kinda hoped this was a management simulation, not just another racing game with added bits.
The race itself is the dullest part of the game for me, it needs making more immersive.
It'd be a shame if this game became just another racing videogame, they have something better than that with the potential to be even better if they ignore those wanting the game dumbing down.

I've been playing the game for four and a half years and still enjoy it. DB has been playing for seven or eight months and judging by his comments above he doesn't like it. So why doesn't he just stop playing and find a game he does like because he's never going to get his random crashes.

You misrepresent and dissemble, because you are arguing from a weak position. Show me a crash in an F1 race that is "random". They simply don't exist. You argue against all offs and crashes, which are a part of motor sport and have definite causes. Nothing random. Luck dies play a part, sure, but only in the sense that a driver may take liberties with his grip level only so far on any given surface before the laws of physics dump him in the wall. To not have that in the race sim engine is definitely a deficiency and I hope the game grows beyond the simplistic race engine and develops,. The rest of the game, I have no issues with, apart from nosey forum users who look up the re ords of others with whom they disagree and them deride them. Btw, I never said you cried, you made that up. And I did not accuse you of not manning up, another fabrication. It's a shame that you feel the need to lie, it makes your other assertions quite difficult to believe.

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James Atkins
5 years 170 days ago

Dave

It happened to Mansel. Blown tyre. What did he do cry? No. He accepted it as part and parcel of the sport. If you want clean strategy to prevail with no chance of the better strategy losing, sports is not for you. Chess might be closer. If however you want a sports management sim to be as good as possible, then accept the rub of the green. Man up, like Mansell did and come back stronger.

He's not telling lies that's for sure

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Chris Py
5 years 170 days ago

I am a new player and at first I was a bit disappointed that there was no crashes and such. But after thinking about it some time, I changed my view and I really wouldn't like crashes to be introduced.

I play and enjoy this game because it lets me play using my brain rather than having a good hand to eye coordination. I like arcade style games too occasionally but I see my self as a thinker and a good strategist and that's what I want to be measured by.

Sure, I can see the appeal of som degree of accidents but I don't like situations that I can not prepare for. Is it more realistic? Absolutely! But since I see my self as a good strategist, I think that accidents would not be in my favor. It would shrink the advantage that I have over fellow/rival managers.

I'd much rather see tons of more layers of complexity regarding your driver/staff/HQ/setup stats. I dislike that the big four is so important and I would like many more settings to set in my practice (add another 10-20 laps as well).

Perhaps a feature such as not doing your Practice and setup properly will give you a high chance of failure during the race? I wouldn't mind that at all since it most likely wouldn't affect me. I always do my setup. It would punish you for not being active. Perhaps ignoring your driver training and leaving him/her at 100% between races would make him/her unfocused and more likely to crash. That would also benefit those who are active and take care of all aspects of their team.

Well that's my thoughts :)

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Dave Benton
5 years 170 days ago

James

Dave

It happened to Mansel. Blown tyre. What did he do cry? No. He accepted it as part and parcel of the sport. If you want clean strategy to prevail with no chance of the better strategy losing, sports is not for you. Chess might be closer. If however you want a sports management sim to be as good as possible, then accept the rub of the green. Man up, like Mansell did and come back stronger.

He's not telling lies that's for sure

The passage is talking about Mansel and his peers in motor racing. That is fairly clear to anyone who reads English.

It illustrates the point that events happen in sports and it is the reaction to adversity that makes the champion. To see that and take it as a personal attack shows more about the reader than the writer.
To then look into the authors background information and use that as a basis for attacking his views whilst claiming that "I didn't start it" I s the lie.
My poi t is valid. The supposed target of the attack is not even mentioned by name, the actual object of the phrases 'cry' and "Man up" is Nigel Mansel, as is clearly stated in both sentences.

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Binod Shrestha
5 years 169 days ago

I have problems regarding training. One of my driver was level 11 who I started to train new driver, now the new driver is level 11 but the old one is also still level 11

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Kevin Bissell Super Mod
5 years 169 days ago

Binod.

It would probably have been better if you had started a new thread in "Help & Support", in future please would you not post "off-topic". Anyhow, seeing as you asked I'll do my best to answer here.

You are a L11 manager, the further your drivers are away from your manager level the fewer stars your drivers will have and their training will be more effective.
When the driver reaches the same level as you (in this case L11) their star rating will become 5 red stars and the rate at which they improve for each press of the training button will only be 3%. When this happens it takes a very long time for the driver to improve any further.
So if you had one L11 driver and one at say L8, because the L8 driver training is more effective eventually they will both equalise at L11.
Don't worry, each time you level up the drivers star rating will change back to yellow and their training speed will increase again.

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Frank Thomas Moderator
5 years 169 days ago

Greg

I'll probably be in the minority of veteran players by saying this, but I personally wouldn't mind having incidents in races. Of course I'd be at least mildly annoyed if it happened to me, but it's racing and sometimes that happens.

HOWEVER

It has to be inserted properly. It would require a ton of complex algorithms to determine what would or wouldn't constitute an incident at any given point, taking in factors such as track conditions, driver skills, how much room for error there is at a given turn, etc. For example, wet weather races would cause more incidents and offs than dry weather races. Tracks like Monaco and Singapore would cause more crashes due to there being little to no margin of error should a driver make a mistake. There's simply way too much that needs to be factored in as it pertains to having incidents.

All in all, factors like crashes and mechanical failures will always be a dividing point between newer players and more experienced ones, with newer players in favor of and veterans opposing. It's a sliding scale of realism vs. randomness, one which I can see both sides of the coin here. On one hand, it's a game, and not everything that happens in real life can be inserted into it. On the other, this whole idea of inserting realistic elements as nothing but promoting randomness is not only a lazy way of thinking, but hurts the development of the game in the long run. Also, I REALLY hate using the example of a potential incident costing someone the championship. That's a cop out if you ask me. There's 17 races in a season, meaning that any points lost due to an incident could've easily been made up by getting a few extra points in several other races.

I'd be pretty annoyed if a competitor drops out as well if that ruins a close race finale. I'd rather loose races than winning that way.

I agree that a lot hinges on the factors playing a role. The problem is that even the most sophisticated simulations can't fully simulate reality and even a fairly decent simulation is beyond the scope of this game. Bear in mind this is a basically free to play game and multiplayer and thus the servers of the company have to run all the simulations for thousands of races including all the cars and all the drivers behaviour. PC single player games have it easier as they have, usually, quite powerful gaming PCs running the game as they don't have to worry about meddling as usually the only one people could cheat would be themselves. Still those games have to rely heavily on random numbers and incidents feel artificial and wrong in them.

Dave has a point with reality as events naturally always have a cause action chain and sometimes just seem random due to the inability to observe all details, but for a game at present time to get what he wishes for really right would be requiring having real people driving the cars in our races. I reckon the cars could be simulated fairly convincing nowadays, though I'm not sure if it's within the financial scope of a free2play game, but adding proper drivers behaviour and we're still beyond the abilities of a game server and, given what I've seen in games so far, beyond the abilities of game AI.

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Dave Benton
5 years 169 days ago

Frank

Greg

I'll probably be in the minority of veteran players by saying this, but I personally wouldn't mind having incidents in races. Of course I'd be at least mildly annoyed if it happened to me, but it's racing and sometimes that happens.

HOWEVER

It has to be inserted properly. It would require a ton of complex algorithms to determine what would or wouldn't constitute an incident at any given point, taking in factors such as track conditions, driver skills, how much room for error there is at a given turn, etc. For example, wet weather races would cause more incidents and offs than dry weather races. Tracks like Monaco and Singapore would cause more crashes due to there being little to no margin of error should a driver make a mistake. There's simply way too much that needs to be factored in as it pertains to having incidents.

All in all, factors like crashes and mechanical failures will always be a dividing point between newer players and more experienced ones, with newer players in favor of and veterans opposing. It's a sliding scale of realism vs. randomness, one which I can see both sides of the coin here. On one hand, it's a game, and not everything that happens in real life can be inserted into it. On the other, this whole idea of inserting realistic elements as nothing but promoting randomness is not only a lazy way of thinking, but hurts the development of the game in the long run. Also, I REALLY hate using the example of a potential incident costing someone the championship. That's a cop out if you ask me. There's 17 races in a season, meaning that any points lost due to an incident could've easily been made up by getting a few extra points in several other races.

I'd be pretty annoyed if a competitor drops out as well if that ruins a close race finale. I'd rather loose races than winning that way.

I agree that a lot hinges on the factors playing a role. The problem is that even the most sophisticated simulations can't fully simulate reality and even a fairly decent simulation is beyond the scope of this game. Bear in mind this is a basically free to play game and multiplayer and thus the servers of the company have to run all the simulations for thousands of races including all the cars and all the drivers behaviour. PC single player games have it easier as they have, usually, quite powerful gaming PCs running the game as they don't have to worry about meddling as usually the only one people could cheat would be themselves. Still those games have to rely heavily on random numbers and incidents feel artificial and wrong in them.

Dave has a point with reality as events naturally always have a cause action chain and sometimes just seem random due to the inability to observe all details, but for a game at present time to get what he wishes for really right would be requiring having real people driving the cars in our races. I reckon the cars could be simulated fairly convincing nowadays, though I'm not sure if it's within the financial scope of a free2play game, but adding proper drivers behaviour and we're still beyond the abilities of a game server and, given what I've seen in games so far, beyond the abilities of game AI.

Just looking for a movement towards a more real feeling race simulation in the game. An ideal to move towards rather than a realisable short term goal, if you like. The KERS thing would be a good place to start tho'. :)

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