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TYRES: Scaling wear to race duration

But, as you can see, S tyres or even SS tyres can hold on half of the race in real Life. Like Vettel in Bahrein, our riders need to be good to go to the end of the race and manage the tyre.


And we should CHOOSE 3 different compounds for EACH RACE. Rather than having all the compounds at our disposal during the race.

We race in 100% race from the start and this change will have very negative effect on our race. S will be like SS now and H will be used a lot now. We do a lot of 5 or 6 stops with S and S will go have SS caracteristics. Ofcourse its imporent to change the % a bit but for us, the player who is actif 45minutes none stop with racing...its gonna be crap. I am not going to do 10 or 12 stops....this gonna be H all the way....the problem its shifting from 25% to 100% now.

Well, the main issue was that 50% long races were H-H like. "The one everyone complains about". After this first step, nothing would change in 50% long races as "50% duration race - no change". So, we'll see the same complaints.

Also, this is not right that same tyre has different wear rate with different length races: 25, 50, 75, 100.
This is just weird and unrealistic.



The first step should be scaling wear between tyre compounds. It should be shorter as everyone proposes.
I think.

You won't be doing more stops in 100% race distances, you will be doing less as the wear rate gets scaled down.

With the CURRENT system 100% races at Hungary are 10% wear on Super Softs = 7 stops
With the CHANGED system 100% races at Hungary are 5% wear on Super Softs = 3/4 stops

P.S I use Hungary as an example as it is easy to calculate and explain for the Super Soft tyre.

 If  balance to be scaled for all lengths:
 -direct scale tyres;
 -direct scale fuel (because many tyres will get to max reasonable fuel level and only the best one will be used)
 -direct scale heat building for all tyres (because otherwise if lets say supersoft build just enough heat for a 50% race in 5 laps which corresponds  to when the tyre will wear and this make tyre usable dont translate to 100% 10 laps because tyre will be overheated after lap 5)
 -direct scale pit stops and/or tyre speed (because othervise not enough laps to get enough difference in time or too many laps and get too much time)
 -the KERS can do more then 10% of the race in 25% race  and it does about 2% of the race in 100% races so it will be scaled? Actualy as of now 50% is taken for a base so 100% will have double more KERS?

In the best result different reces will be the same but they still will be not the same because different number of laps.

If there are different race lengths they should be balanced separately and not be same race with different number of laps.

Just imagined 25% europe 14 laps, 7 pit stops , every second lap pit stop ;].

Also wondering why 50% is chosen as base.
In my opinion 100% is the full feature game and the rest is simplified versions - the shorter the more simplified.

The shorter lengths are more centered about qualifing with 25% being the extreme case. So lets make it like 100% races with more depth strategy - we will make 3 or 4 pit stops neccessary in the 14 laps the short race has. Does this make it similar to the 100%. In 100% races there is possibilities for various extend of stints. Lets say stint 56/4  14 laps so it can be shortened to 13 or extended to 15,16,17,18. In short race 14/4 average stint 3.5 - presumably tyres will wear in about 3.5 laps. We translate the 100% strategy to the short race and we have 3 laps short stint and 4,5,6,7 laps extended stint. But wait tyre is 3.5 laps and is extended to 7 laps that is double distance and that should not be posssible. Then we can argue in the shorter race we can extend 1 lap and it will be the same as extending 4 laps in the 100% race. But then what is the equal extend of 1,2,3 laps. Well there is no such extend. In the shorter race you either extend 4 laps (as it was full race) or you dont extend at all. Additionaly many more events can happen in 4 laps then in 1 lap. And honestly pit stop every 3-4 laps  on hard tyre? ;]

Conclusion: Number of laps matters. The whole gameplay scaled directly is not great idea.

Ok its x2 so hard will be 7-8 laps but then this is valid for the next tyres which is soft 3.5 - 4 laps and supersoft which is 2 laps i guess ;].

Happy that you are finally working on the tires, we will see how the situation will evolve.

In the league settings, really need to have more options, for example set rules or limitations for the allowed tires


Last weekend in Monza, Hamilton completed 28 laps with supersoft tires, Raikkonene 20, etc ...
In iGP this seems to me to be absolutely impossible, I am only at level 13, but I have seen that only in Monaco it is possible to do more than 10 laps with the supersoft.
In iGP, Monza, to make good results it is almost obligatory to use hard tires.

Here's something wrong ...

20/28 laps with supersoft ........ 0_0

Hi Jack- cheers for the news on tyre updates and for the hard work you guys put in!

Not sure if I have gathered this right but did a few posts in this thread ask you if you can re balance the power of fuel consumption/ weight of fuel? As Myself and the rest of our league have quickly found that the added weight ballast in a stint that incurs if you want to cut out one pit stop leads to a huge disadvantage overall and therefore it seems that there is no other option in races as to go for the recommended number of pits? Is there anyway to re address the power of this? 

Final quick question- just wondered how the system is supposed to work in terms of ballast on higher level players joining a league? My friend joined a lower league and had ballast added- a level 14 joined my pro league - i am only just level 9 and he is far faster than us but didn’t get ballast? Any reason?

Cheers!

Its additional post but anyone can just not read it if not interested. Its TL DR ;)

I make the count and in one season currently optimal set of tires (for me) looks like this:
55  H
10  SS
4    S
0    M
It can be somewhat different in winter with + 5-10 more to SS and - 4-5 to H.
Its visible that there is one dominant tyre(H), one completely useless(M) and from the other 2 one is somewhat usefull (SS) and the the other is very situational (S) .
 
I had not been playing this game since the beggining but from what I had read on the forums before H the M was the dominating tyre. 
What is important here is that the game always had one type of tyre just too good.

The real chalenge for the developers is to make more then one tyre usefull and this is not easy (its really funny how people often suggest adding even more type of tyres while of the current 4 only one is almost always used).

The problem of balancing n types of tyres while all being usefull is at least n^n exponantial.
 - put one tyre in the game - its very easy to balance. since its only one tyre its automaticaly balanced difficulty 1
 - put 2 types of tyres (remember is not just about put more numbers in the game but tyres to be all usefull and no dominant tyre) difficulty 2^2 = 4   - 4 times harder then one type
 - put 3^3=27  - about 7 times harder then 2 types
 - put 4^4=256 - about 9 times harder then 3 types
This is just example numbers but the difficulty of balancing tyres really explodes with the increasing number of tyres.

This is where the game currently is but fails and ends up again with only one tyre almost always used. This clearly shows the problem is not easy to solve.

The balance is also  connected with the number of laps.
If the race is only 1 lap and there are 2 types of tyre they can be balanced in a way that lets say tyre 1 make 2 seconds advantage until the middle of the lap then it wears and in the second half of the lap it loses 2 seconds. Still can be taken into account tyre 1 will probably has grid advantage so it will need to be somewhat slower to make tyres about equal. So probably unlimited number of tyres can be balanced this way - with one lap race and 2 cars and considering only wear and speed.

 But when we increase number of laps to 2 laps the possible pit stop makes things more difficult. Now tyre may last the whole race or half race and pit stop after 1 lap. But how this will look like - car will go 10 seconds ahead in the first lap then pit, come out of pit 10 seconds behind and catch up with the other car and finish about equal. The pit stop allows reseting tyre wear for a time cost and its certinly more interesting then the above one lap example because also fuel enters the game. But then if pit stops (reset fuel, tyre type and wear) are between the laps and the maximum numbers of resets is limited to the numbers of laps -1, then is the maximum possible balanced types of tyres  laps-1 ?.

Most likely no.

  In a 10 laps race lets say we have 1 lap tyre, 2 laps tyre .... 10 laps tyre. How de we balance 5 laps tyre against 4 laps tyre?  5+5=10 but 4+4= 8 so the 4 laps tyre wont use its full potential in the last 2 laps stint. if its balanced in such a way that 4+4+2 on the 4 laps tyre is same as 5+5 on the 5 laps tyre then we have to take into account the 4 laps tyre should also be balanced against the 2 lap tyre which is 2+2+2+2+2 but then the the 2 laps tyre is obviously faster then the 4 laps tyre since it pit stop 4 times against 2 times on the 4 laps tyre. Then its prefered to run 4+4 on the 4 laps tyre  + 2 on the 2 laps tyre but this is now faster then the 5+5 tyre wich makes the 5 laps tyre useless...

A simple example with many additional simplifications and is still very hard to balance just the 2 lap tyre, 4 lap tyre and 5 lap tyre (and ignoring the 1,3,6,7,8,9,10 laps tyres) in a 10 laps race ;]. No wonder the game always ends up with one dominating tyre.

I dont think ignoring the complexity of the problem and trying to solve it  for different numbers of laps in generalized way with simple scaling will bring sufficient results.

Hello @Jack Basford, and iGP managers

Firstly, thank you and your team, for creating a very good game. I've been playing for nearly 1 year now, and it's still as addictive and adrenaline-fueled as the first race!


On the topic of tyres.

After doing a bit of research into this topic, it seems the fundamental 'problem' is the pure pace of the HARD Tyre, especially in race pace.

This can be explained. Pirelli Formula One race tyres differentiate in lap time (delta) by around 0.900s between compounds.
ie. SUPERSOFT Tyres are -0.900s/lap v SOFT Tyres ; SOFT Tyres are -0.900s/lap vs MEDIUM



The current tyres in iGP are;
SUPERSOFT >> SOFT: -0.900s
SOFT >> MEDIUM: -0.900s
MEDIUM >> HARD: -0.200s


Spot the error? So the simple, sticker plaster solution, would be to add +0.700s/lap onto the HARD Tyres. This would reduce the effectiveness of the said tyre, and bring into play the other 3 tyre compounds, on a more equal playing field.


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As for a more permanent solution, I believe adding a ULTRASOFT compound, in conjunction with an accurate balancing of the tyre degradations of the 4 current race tyres, is the way forward.

I have come to this conclusion, after doing some data simulations on the tyres, analysing recent F1 Pirelli tyre compound choices, and taking into account current gameplay/strategy around the current iGP tracks.


I have used 100% race distance with an optimum of 3 stops (on a hypothetical 60 lap track) as a base for these calculations.


Current iGP tyre degredation:

SS-13%
S-6.5%
M-3.75%
H-2.75%


Proposed iGP tyre degredation:

US-21% - 3 laps (49.30)= 6-7 laps

SS-10% - 7 laps (47.82)= 13 laps
S-5.25% - 13 laps (49.60)= 22 laps
M-3.00% - 23 laps (49.60)= 30 laps

H-2.00% - 35 laps (49.30)= 47-50 laps


Number in brackets is % Tyre left, after first number of laps (50% cliff). Second lap(s) number is effective usable tyre lap range.

Note: I've grouped together SS, S and M tyres, as they are principally selected by Pirelli for F1 race meetings.

 Peter this is from:https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/136287/pirelli-asked-to-simplify-tyre-names-for-2019

  "The FIA and Formula 1 have both asked Pirelli to simplify the names it uses for its tyre range in 2019 to make it easier for casual fans to understand.
  The current range of compounds is set to be kept, but names such as ultrasoft and supersoft will be scrapped.
  Instead, Pirelli will only present hard, medium and soft tyres at each grand prix weekend, with the actual compounds using those names changing depending on the circuit.
  This idea has been around for some time, but it has now become an official request that Pirelli is currently analysing."

 Next year they most likely go with 3 compounds for each race and compounds will be named Soft, Medium and Hard and attunned for each separate race.
 And F1 is not a great example of good balancing of tires. They struggle with that too. Thats why they have rule to use minimum 2 types of tyre. And still in almost every race almost every car is doing 1 pit stop strategy. They struggle with tyre balance not less then in the game :)

  Also the simple proposed solution of slowing hard tyre +0.5 will basicly make the hard tyre useless and will never be used.
  Its just not that simple to make all 4 types is usefull.

If the tyres in 100% are able to do 2x distance all you have done is move the 1 stop hard at 50% to 1 stop hard at 100% killing the 100% races to put them in line with the 50% races of 1 stop or have i missed something

It's a valid point igra from autosport. However tracks such Monaco vs Monza vary a great deal in tyre degradation. By having an ULTRASOFT compound, it gives a number of iGP races (especially Monaco iGP) a new strategy dimension, instead of the current 5 stop SUPERSOFT race we currently have.

Regarding balancing the HARD tyre by adding +0.700s/lap, you have to remember that with HARD tyres you can race with a higher Push Level. Typically +2,+3 sometimes even +4 Push Levels versus a SUPERSOFT tyre.

0.700s/lap to HARD would merely get it to balance out with SOFT and SUPERSOFT tyres in overall race time. Remember, less pit stops required with HARD tyres.

 Peter if hard are slowed 0.5 sec I'm absolutely sure I will beat your hard tyre by using medium tyre  in any race which makes hard useless tyre ;] because medium will always be better. Hards are better then medium but not that much.

 I'm sure there is not easy way to balance 4 types of tyre (may be possible with very large amount or race laps much more then in the game). The problem becomes more difficult for shorter races and may not even be solvable in reasonable way.

Should be fun :)

100% duration race - tyres wear 0.5 times the current rate.

Is that wear -0.5 or +0.5? 
Currently SS @ 13% the tyre is 50% worn after 6 laps.

First things first. I entirely agree with no wanting this, but really is the language and shouting needed?


Next, so what if the SS becomes more powerful. This is fun game, not a boring F1 Simulator. Powerful SS and softs will lead to more stops, therefore more strategies. More will they stop, wont they etc. This makes the game more exciting compared to 3 or 2 or even 1 stop races that some people are pushing towards with wanting to replicate F1 more realistically.

If we replicate real f1 races you will have a 1 stop races all over the places, drs trains and boredom.

I think then we need to look more at fuel weight and its effects while tweaking tire temps to allow for some variation in push lvls. I never thought the hards became too powerful, but the effect of fuel weight became less apparent. This was the only reason we didnt run these 3 type strats in the old game.

Thats my contribution at least.

On average in race settings, you can push HARD tyres +1.5 Push levels higher than MEDIUM tyres. This equates to around -0.750s/lap in laptime.

Bearing in mind that Pirelli took the HARD tyre compound only 4 times in 2016 F1 season, once in 2017 F1 season(Spain), and so far, only once in 2018 (Great Britain), I believe the HARD tyre should be optimum in specific conditions, ie high temperature races such as iGP Bahrain, iGP Abu Dhabi, where a MEDIUM  tyre will simply overheat.

This would reflect accurately the fact that Pirelli have chosen HARD tyres only 6 times in the last 55 F1 races (Just over 2 and half years)

Exact!

 To have 2 type of tyres with 2 different names and same wear rate for different temperatures is the same as one type of tyre that is usefull for both temperarures. The problem with medium against hard is that their wear rate  2% 3% or 4%  allows to reach maximum reasonable fuel load (the level from which adding more fuel slows down the car too much). You can say that in some races medium has 5% wear rate and you want to do 16-18 laps but this don't change  the overall picture. When there are more then one tyre in the maximum reasonable fuel load only the strongest survive. With the incoming change the soft tyre will also join the maximum reasonable fuel level so there will be 3 tyres and two of them will be eliminated from usability.

  Two tyres can be defined as different only if they have different wear rate and this difference is actualy reflected in a race strategy in that stints with different tyres are different lengths. The actual strategy stints with both hard and medium are same length so thay are in fact same tyre strategycaly.

  All my previous posts are about why the direct scaling is bad idea and only make balance harder. The better way is to go with small changes separately for different lengths. Somthing like :  soft faster 0.1;   hard slower 0.1 ; Malaysia supersoft wear from 17 to 14 ; soft from 8 to 7; . then wait some time to see how it goes before deciding more changes. But there is one core problem in tyre balance which I will describe.

Balancing grid race for more then two types of tyres is impossible.

Proof:
  Assume we have 2 types of tyres: tyre A and tyre B. To be defined as different they must have different wear rate. So tyre A wears faster then tyre B. Since tyre A wears faster then tyre B it will make different number of pit stops during the race (otherwise they are the same tyre strategycaly). Since tyre A has to do more pit stops then tyre B it must have more speed to achieve same time over the whole race. Then since tyre A has more speed it will have the grid advantage. This grid advantage has to be compensated so we give tyre B a little bit better pace for the long run. Now tyre A and tyre B
are balanced.
  Then we try to add tyre C. Tyre C has different wear rate and represents different strategy. Lets say tyre C wears slower then tyre B and will do less pit stops. We balance tyre C against tyre B in the same way that we balanced tyre A and B. We give tyre C more pace to compensate for the worse grid.

  After this the best strategy is to use tyre A which is best grid/first stint  tyre and then continue to the end of the race on tyre C which has the best pace. Tyre B becomes useless.Note that tyre B need the whole race to catch up with the grid
advantage of tyre A but tyre A is used only for the first stint and for the rest of the race tyre B cant catch up with tyre C because tyre C is just faster in pace.

And if you add more types of tyres the outcome will be the same - one tyre will be best first stint tyre and one tyre will be the best pace tyre. And this is the good scenario.
The bad scenario is when one type of tyre is both best for the first stint and for the pace.

  This can easily be observed in the game H-H-H-H SS-SS-SS-SS-SS-SS SS-H-H-H SS-H-H-H-H.

  Because of this to have more variety in strategy the best way to go is probably to have some restrictions in tyre use (this along with small changes like +0.1 sec on some tyre; -1% wear on some tyre on some track ect. with the aim for slighty better balance)
 Possible example:
generate random number 0,1,2 before the race
-0 all tyres are allowed
-1 one type of tyre is randomly chosen and cannot be used in the race
-2 two types of tyre are randomly chosen and cant be used in the race
then generate one more random number 0,1,2
-0 no obligatory tyre
-1 one of the remaining tyres is randomly chosen and is obligatory to use for
at least one stint in the race
-2 two of the remaining tyres are chosen and its obligatory to use them in the race
Another example:
-limited number of tyre sets given for one full season or sets generated per race

In any way at some point tyre restrictions will very likely come into the game because of the above described problem.
The other way to go is dynamicaly randomized wear rates and lap times for the race so this season lets say Germany has this strategy but next season wear rates/speeds are different and is different strategy.

better solution, for me, is to permanently remove Hard compound in this game.