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Forums > Global Forums (English) > Suggestions

Suggested
About random events

We need random events such as talking to driver,telling the strategies by radio mic,crashes among cars,time penalty...

56.14% (64)
Yes
43.86% (50)
No
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Dave Benton medal 5000
4 years 273 days ago (Last edited by Dave Benton 4 years 273 days ago)
Kevin
Well you guys who wanted these things got what you asked for... A manager miscalculates fuel, runs out and coasts into the pits and triggers yellow flags and VSCs thus interfering with everybody else's race.

Do you still think it's a good idea?



Yes. 

Because it is, at least, a step in the right direction. 
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Kevin Bissell medal 5000 Super Mod
4 years 273 days ago
So having something over which you have no control, is entirely in the hands of your competitors and has the potential to ruin your one race of the day and ultimately a three to five week championship season is a step in the right direction?

Fortunately, owing to overwhelming negative feedback, within little more than 24 hours the devs backtracked on the yellow flag / SC for running out of fuel in the pit lane. We already have random uncontrollable events in the form of qualifying and weather, very few of the managers who actually understand this game want any more of them.

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Dave Benton medal 5000
4 years 273 days ago

Kevin
So having something over which you have no control, is entirely in the hands of your competitors and has the potential to ruin your one race of the day and ultimately a three to five week championship season is a step in the right direction?

Fortunately, owing to overwhelming negative feedback, within little more than 24 hours the devs backtracked on the yellow flag / SC for running out of fuel in the pit lane. We already have random uncontrollable events in the form of qualifying and weather, very few of the managers who actually understand this game want any more of them.




Such arrogance... Of course your preferred reality is  'better' than what real team managers face in the real world.

Me, I prefer to react to a race as it enfold, just like real motor racing. It's not neat and tidy and always fair, it tests you more than that. I'm not surprised that you aren't up to those challenges, but it would be sad if this sim took the retrograde step towards abstraction that some advocate. 
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Gaetano Lombardo medal 5000
4 years 273 days ago
I can't believe there are people who really want random events that heavily influence the race. 
Maybe these people rarely play, and when they do they lose badly and therefore they want events that give them a chance to win some races ...
Maybe those people have never participated in competitive championships, where every single race has its own importance, and losing it randomly would be annoying ...
But besides this, if I take my time to play and because of an accident I no longer have a car and I cannot play, what do I do? I probably quit the game, I have nothing more to do and I also lost my time.
Are you really asking for random events that allow you not to play?
If you don't want to play don't do it ...
What is the excuse for these events? "in the real f1 it works like this" ...? ridiculous .... I'm here to play.
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Bastian Ba medal 5431
4 years 273 days ago (Last edited by Bastian Ba 4 years 273 days ago)
Gaetano
I can't believe there are people who really want random events that heavily influence the race. 
Maybe these people rarely play, and when they do they lose badly and therefore they want events that give them a chance to win some races ...
Maybe those people have never participated in competitive championships, where every single race has its own importance, and losing it randomly would be annoying ...
But besides this, if I take my time to play and because of an accident I no longer have a car and I cannot play, what do I do? I probably quit the game, I have nothing more to do and I also lost my time.
Are you really asking for random events that allow you not to play?
If you don't want to play don't do it ...
What is the excuse for these events? "in the real f1 it works like this" ...? ridiculous .... I'm here to play.



These are the poeple who don't understand the game and need random events to win. They need that the guys in front of them are taken out by the random system.

If it would be systematic the managers who understand the game the best would handle these situations the best. So they ask for something, which is unmanagable to be at least sometimes lucky. 

@Dave a race does not enfold to a Team in reality.
It does not happen random to them.
They Monitor everything. How old are the tires of the opponent. Who is in a infight. Is a "crashkid"  involved. How likely is a safetycar deploit. Where on the track might they crash, where is the own car then and so on ... 
And then developing a contingency Plan for every Situation.
As i mentioned often everything except of the start, where there is just not enough space on the track for 20 cars, is not random.
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Patrick Majetić medal 4925
4 years 273 days ago
I don't want random events, I just want something to spice up races. Crashes can happen if (example) rookie driver is overpushing on worn tyers and engine failures can happen if engine is worn out. Example, Motorsport manager style of reliability with red bar. Reliability stat in this game could determine leigh of red bar (better reliability, shorter red bar) so a car with low reliability will have engine failure when engine "health" is 50% or lower and car with good reliability will have engine failure if engine "health" is 15% or lower
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Dave Benton medal 5000
4 years 273 days ago

Patrick
I don't want random events, I just want something to spice up races. Crashes can happen if (example) rookie driver is overpushing on worn tyers and engine failures can happen if engine is worn out. Example, Motorsport manager style of reliability with red bar. Reliability stat in this game could determine leigh of red bar (better reliability, shorter red bar) so a car with low reliability will have engine failure when engine "health" is 50% or lower and car with good reliability will have engine failure if engine "health" is 15% or lower



I concur...tge word 'random' is a bit of a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Either that or an excuse... Maybe it was incorrectly applied by the original poster, we do have people speaking here in second (and maybe third) languages. What I'd replace it with is 'unpredictable', a much more common type of incident in sports than purely random ones. Unpredictability is a huge part of all sports, especially motorsport. If it weren't you could simply feed data into an algorithm and not bother with the actual sport. The real world of sports is not that clean and tidy, and bringing more of that realism would more closely mirror the split second decision making that faces real team managers as events unfold and incidents which were not foreseen make a plan irrelevant. These challenges separate the good players from the mere planners and add to the game. Basically, if a plan is too rigid to survive and unforeseen set of circumstances, then it is a limited plan. Free up those who can think on their feet when presented with an unexpected opportunity to gain on more rigid opponents, it's not just how sport works, it's how life works. Give us a chance to face the unplanned for and succeed. 
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Jeeva Sudhan medal 5000
4 years 273 days ago
Ok....sorry for the word random in the question title guys.....community manager and basford please consider this in next update...i didn't mean to tell 'things happen randomly' but 'happens due to some reasons....'.
Hoping to see this in next update.
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Bastian Ba medal 5431
4 years 273 days ago

Dave

Patrick
I don't want random events, I just want something to spice up races. Crashes can happen if (example) rookie driver is overpushing on worn tyers and engine failures can happen if engine is worn out. Example, Motorsport manager style of reliability with red bar. Reliability stat in this game could determine leigh of red bar (better reliability, shorter red bar) so a car with low reliability will have engine failure when engine "health" is 50% or lower and car with good reliability will have engine failure if engine "health" is 15% or lower



I concur...tge word 'random' is a bit of a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Either that or an excuse... Maybe it was incorrectly applied by the original poster, we do have people speaking here in second (and maybe third) languages. What I'd replace it with is 'unpredictable', a much more common type of incident in sports than purely random ones. Unpredictability is a huge part of all sports, especially motorsport. If it weren't you could simply feed data into an algorithm and not bother with the actual sport. The real world of sports is not that clean and tidy, and bringing more of that realism would more closely mirror the split second decision making that faces real team managers as events unfold and incidents which were not foreseen make a plan irrelevant. These challenges separate the good players from the mere planners and add to the game. Basically, if a plan is too rigid to survive and unforeseen set of circumstances, then it is a limited plan. Free up those who can think on their feet when presented with an unexpected opportunity to gain on more rigid opponents, it's not just how sport works, it's how life works. Give us a chance to face the unplanned for and succeed. 


Now its getting closer to reality.

Anyhow there is nothing unpredictable for  a team.
I think you mix up the role  of a spectator and a manager. For a spectator in front of the tv at  home it looks unpredictable. For a Team it is not unpredictable it is way more about uncertainty, that is managed with probabilities and a vast amount of data as i explained in my previous post.
Thats my main point why i don't like random events. 
As i mentioned in another post, i would not have problems with crashes and a safety car when that happens based on a sound logic, lets say a low cooling and a retirement of the car at a critical part of the track.
In case you get data  you could observe how the cooling stat of your opponents is and plan for that event with a change of your strategy.
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Gaetano Lombardo medal 5000
4 years 273 days ago
Dave
I concur...tge word 'random' is a bit of a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Either that or an excuse... Maybe it was incorrectly applied by the original poster, we do have people speaking here in second (and maybe third) languages. What I'd replace it with is 'unpredictable', a much more common type of incident in sports than purely random ones. Unpredictability is a huge part of all sports, especially motorsport. If it weren't you could simply feed data into an algorithm and not bother with the actual sport. The real world of sports is not that clean and tidy, and bringing more of that realism would more closely mirror the split second decision making that faces real team managers as events unfold and incidents which were not foreseen make a plan irrelevant. These challenges separate the good players from the mere planners and add to the game. Basically, if a plan is too rigid to survive and unforeseen set of circumstances, then it is a limited plan. Free up those who can think on their feet when presented with an unexpected opportunity to gain on more rigid opponents, it's not just how sport works, it's how life works. Give us a chance to face the unplanned for and succeed. 

What do you mean with unpredictable, what are the concrete examples?
In programming the values can be of two types, random or assigned.
For example, if one pushes too much and "risks burning the engine", there are two cases:
1 - game over, he retire ... assigned;
2 - your "unpredictability" factor decides whether to let it go on or point number one (game over) ... but how does "unpredictability" decide? randomly!.
In fact, if for example there are two competitors, the cases become three:
1 - end of the game for both ... assigned;
2 - one of the two stops and the other continues ... random;
3 - both continue or both stop ... random.
So what do you mean by unpredictability, for me this can be the second or third language, but it doesn't matter, even in life unpredictability and randomness are synonymous.
Any example you can give there will always be the randomness factor.
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Patrick Majetić medal 4925
4 years 273 days ago
Engine failures could be assigned, for now car to car crashes shouldn't be included until developers make separated parts (front wing, rear wing, suspension, chassis, brakes), and if driver makes mistake and he goes on runoff area, he can continue, but if he hits wall, he is out (depends on location on track)
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Dave Benton medal 5000
4 years 272 days ago

Gaetano
Dave
I concur...tge word 'random' is a bit of a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Either that or an excuse... Maybe it was incorrectly applied by the original poster, we do have people speaking here in second (and maybe third) languages. What I'd replace it with is 'unpredictable', a much more common type of incident in sports than purely random ones. Unpredictability is a huge part of all sports, especially motorsport. If it weren't you could simply feed data into an algorithm and not bother with the actual sport. The real world of sports is not that clean and tidy, and bringing more of that realism would more closely mirror the split second decision making that faces real team managers as events unfold and incidents which were not foreseen make a plan irrelevant. These challenges separate the good players from the mere planners and add to the game. Basically, if a plan is too rigid to survive and unforeseen set of circumstances, then it is a limited plan. Free up those who can think on their feet when presented with an unexpected opportunity to gain on more rigid opponents, it's not just how sport works, it's how life works. Give us a chance to face the unplanned for and succeed. 

What do you mean with unpredictable, what are the concrete examples?
In programming the values can be of two types, random or assigned.
For example, if one pushes too much and "risks burning the engine", there are two cases:
1 - game over, he retire ... assigned;
2 - your "unpredictability" factor decides whether to let it go on or point number one (game over) ... but how does "unpredictability" decide? randomly!.
In fact, if for example there are two competitors, the cases become three:
1 - end of the game for both ... assigned;
2 - one of the two stops and the other continues ... random;
3 - both continue or both stop ... random.
So what do you mean by unpredictability, for me this can be the second or third language, but it doesn't matter, even in life unpredictability and randomness are synonymous.
Any example you can give there will always be the randomness factor.



See above post, I could perhaps have talked more about probabilities.

I disagree, as it seems does that poster about your use of randomness equating to unpredictability. It's a question of data available. The better the data on which a projection is based, the closer that projection will be to the actual event and the more accurate the predicted outcome. It's the basis of statistical analysis as applied to forecasting future events. A huge and fast growing part of very many sports, notably sabremetrics in baseball. 
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Gaetano Lombardo medal 5000
4 years 272 days ago

Dave

See above post, I could perhaps have talked more about probabilities.

I disagree, as it seems does that poster about your use of randomness equating to unpredictability. It's a question of data available. The better the data on which a projection is based, the closer that projection will be to the actual event and the more accurate the predicted outcome. It's the basis of statistical analysis as applied to forecasting future events. A huge and fast growing part of very many sports, notably sabremetrics in baseball. 


You keep talking about real life, but here we are in a game with limits delimited by actions and numbers. You and I can do the same things much easier than in real life.
I give another example:
If in this game, we both play for the victory, we make a maneuver to push, that through the data you want to collect gives 90% of the error... 

I go out and lose... 
You are in 10% of salvation and win the race...
We did the same things but I'm out and you won...
this is randomness...
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Dave Benton medal 5000
4 years 272 days ago (Last edited by Dave Benton 4 years 272 days ago)
Gaetano

Dave

See above post, I could perhaps have talked more about probabilities.

I disagree, as it seems does that poster about your use of randomness equating to unpredictability. It's a question of data available. The better the data on which a projection is based, the closer that projection will be to the actual event and the more accurate the predicted outcome. It's the basis of statistical analysis as applied to forecasting future events. A huge and fast growing part of very many sports, notably sabremetrics in baseball. 


You keep talking about real life, but here we are in a game with limits delimited by actions and numbers. You and I can do the same things much easier than in real life.
I give another example:
If in this game, we both play for the victory, we make a maneuver to push, that through the data you want to collect gives 90% of the error... 

I go out and lose... 
You are in 10% of salvation and win the race...
We did the same things but I'm out and you won...
this is randomness...



Sorry, you just don't understand the nature of statistical analysis as applied to sports. I'm not saying that I do but major sports organisations spend millions to use this to improve their probability of success. Or do they just like throwing money away? 
P. S. True Randomness at the macro level is merely causal determinism where the causes are unknown as yet. Even at the quantum level, physicists are divided over whether anything at all is trulu random. Check out the journals. 
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Gaetano Lombardo medal 5000
4 years 272 days ago

Dave

Sorry, you just don't understand the nature of statistical analysis as applied to sports. I'm not saying that I do but major sports organisations spend millions to use this to improve their probability of success. Or do they just like throwing money away? 
P. S. True Randomness at the macro level is merely causal determinism where the causes are unknown as yet. Even at the quantum level, physicists are divided over whether anything at all is trulu random. Check out the journals. 



You talk about real sports and statistical analysis, but we are in a game where programming matters.
Your analyzes are correct in real life, where the possibilities are many and they try to predict them, but in a game the actions are limited and known, since written in the code of program, therefore it is randomness that plays an important role in what you call unpredictability.

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Dave Benton medal 5000
4 years 272 days ago

Gaetano

Dave

Sorry, you just don't understand the nature of statistical analysis as applied to sports. I'm not saying that I do but major sports organisations spend millions to use this to improve their probability of success. Or do they just like throwing money away? 
P. S. True Randomness at the macro level is merely causal determinism where the causes are unknown as yet. Even at the quantum level, physicists are divided over whether anything at all is trulu random. Check out the journals. 



You talk about real sports and statistical analysis, but we are in a game where programming matters.
Your analyzes are correct in real life, where the possibilities are many and they try to predict them, but in a game the actions are limited and known, since written in the code of program, therefore it is randomness that plays an important role in what you call unpredictability.




Do you not know that e-sports use analytics almost as much as any sport? The real world is much harder to analyse in this way than the virtual, there are far more variables in nature than cyberspace. So the point I made is more valid here than in real life sports. 
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Gaetano Lombardo medal 5000
4 years 272 days ago

Dave
Do you not know that e-sports use analytics almost as much as any sport? The real world is much harder to analyse in this way than the virtual, there are far more variables in nature than cyberspace. So the point I made is more valid here than in real life sports. 


You keep talking about esport and real life with an arrogance and an expert connoisseur of the subject, but you are only a dreamer, and it is not an insult.

It makes no sense to talk about other games and their statistical analysis, come back down to earth, and see where you are ... we are in the "iGP Manager" ...
can you use the brakes in a race? no
can you make the car change direction? no
can you hit other cars? no
can you do qualifications? no
can you decide whether or not to pass another car? no
where are the many variables you talk about HERE on iGP Manager?
What I say is that before thinking about useless, harmful and certainly random events, we could fix other things ...
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Kevin Bissell medal 5000 Super Mod
4 years 272 days ago
You're wasting your time. Just ignore him and leave him to bang on about pelotons, silly video game power-ups, the game not doing justice to real motor sport etc. He clearly believes he has a far superior intellect to the rest of us so let him educate us all on probability, statistical analysis, computerised artificial intelligence, the laws of physics and other complex matters beyond the comprehension of us mere mortals. He's never going to accept that this is just a game people play for enjoyment and to be members of a thriving community. He doesn't realise that for the majority of us to enjoy this game we don't require it to accurately replicate real life motor sport. With any luck he will soon tire of the game which he apparently dislikes so much and go find some other game to criticise because he can't win.

Regarding yesterdays accusation of me being arrogant... Mr. Benton you're a very funny man and you make me laugh so I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for brightening up my days in these worrying times.

You don't know the people on this forum, you don't know their background, their job or their specialities. You shouldn't assume that those who disagree with you (and incidentally that is many, many, people) are in some way inferior to you and don't understand the subject they are discussing.

Here is a selection of Bentonisms from this thread suggesting that you're the one with the arrogance problem.

You clearly don't understand physics.

You seem to show a lack of basic understanding of what motorsport is.

Be sensible, think about it.

Of course, if you prefer a neutered sanitised version of motor racing where nobody ever spins off then don't bother, just stick with the argument you are putting forward.

I'm not surprised that you aren't up to those challenges.

Free up those who can think on their feet when presented with an unexpected opportunity to gain on more rigid opponents.

You just don't understand the nature of statistical analysis as applied to sports.


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John Doe medal 5000
4 years 272 days ago

José
I’m really interested in this discussion... ?



I suggest eliminating auto development and manager levels too ... what are they for now? drivers equal for all cars equal for all strategy increasingly equal what is the use of playing? just look at the random qualifications to understand who wins. if a manager while leaving behind (because the game has decided so) manages to recover we put the random accidents to ruin the work done ..... and jose also says that it is a good idea .... tell me the truth you never played this game you speak only for theoretical knowledge .... think of adjusting the qualifications instead of ruining what's good .... I'll give you an idea .... why not rely on the weight of the fuel for the first race sprint in qualifying? I'm sure you thought about it but it was more important to put the ar. or even more random events ..... good day
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Frank Thomas medal 4984 Moderator
4 years 272 days ago (Last edited by Frank Thomas 4 years 272 days ago)
Dave
Gaetano

Dave

See above post, I could perhaps have talked more about probabilities.

I disagree, as it seems does that poster about your use of randomness equating to unpredictability. It's a question of data available. The better the data on which a projection is based, the closer that projection will be to the actual event and the more accurate the predicted outcome. It's the basis of statistical analysis as applied to forecasting future events. A huge and fast growing part of very many sports, notably sabremetrics in baseball. 


You keep talking about real life, but here we are in a game with limits delimited by actions and numbers. You and I can do the same things much easier than in real life.
I give another example:
If in this game, we both play for the victory, we make a maneuver to push, that through the data you want to collect gives 90% of the error... 

I go out and lose... 
You are in 10% of salvation and win the race...
We did the same things but I'm out and you won...
this is randomness...



Sorry, you just don't understand the nature of statistical analysis as applied to sports. I'm not saying that I do but major sports organisations spend millions to use this to improve their probability of success. Or do they just like throwing money away? 
P. S. True Randomness at the macro level is merely causal determinism where the causes are unknown as yet. Even at the quantum level, physicists are divided over whether anything at all is trulu random. Check out the journals. 

You are aware you're making a case against those events now? Because as you just wrote, to make those events truly not random in a game you'd have to simulate them down into quantum level, a level that's not even fully researched yet (or easier, build hundreds of copies of those race tracks, set up teams matching the players ones and let them run the races in real, although no double speed anymore as long as you're not able to built cars accelerating and cornering at twice the speed of other high performance race cars and cloning all those drivers might give a bit of trouble).

The second is, to be truly competitive in races dictated by random numbers you have to invest hours working out those probabilities, or better pay quite some money to hire others to do that work for you, which is far to much into grind or pay2win territory for me, or just resign and make your decisions equally random and play it as a lottery as most players would have to do, which has zero appeal to me either (which those trying to figure out probabilities end up doing quite probably anyway as you can't calculate random ahead and what those analysts in e-sport usually try to predict is the human actions of the competition based on skills and prior behaviour, but our drivers are not humans).
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