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LIVE NOW: Tyre update #3

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James Greer
6 years 63 days ago (edited 6 years 63 days ago)

Bastian

James

I keep harping on about the same thing over and over. My tyre test in Spain @ 16c, was a real eye opener.

The H tyres where PL5 it wasn't until they reached 50% wear they started to have trouble with the low temp.
The M tyres where PL4 & PL5 they had no trouble with the low temp until they had 67% wear (33% life left).

All the issues in the past when H was out classing all others, was because they where never getting anywhere near 50% tyre use & they where only 0.1 slower than M. So reverting back to the way tyres once where will only work if you increase the wear rates of M & H and keep the current speed differences (Delta Times) between the tyres.

what would happen then to strategy choice?

S, SS, and Maybe M obsolete. That solution would work if there would be an even harder tyre a super hard. Then there would be a dominant pair of hard and superhard

If you would Change the wear rates that the hard is wearing under 50% and has to stay there for a while that the effect you explained will work, so lets say, after 12 laps so it will be under 505 for 3 laps when we assume a 60 lap race.
Then you could use the ss Maybe for 3 laps the s for 6 and the m for 9.

The idea with temperature is good but not based on the wear rate.
Lets say it would be posible to implement that you are just not able to get the h warm at 15 Degree and the ss and s will overheat at 25 and 30 Degree.
As from the developers mentioned that would need a bigger update.

Strategy choice would be pick the tyre for the temp.
10c SS & S
16c SS S & M
20c S M & H
25c M & H
30+ H

In order to get a good balance all the tyres are going to have to have high wear rates.
Spain
M 17 laps is 50% wear
H 19 laps is 50% wear
That will have to be changed
17 laps x by 4 stints = 68 laps of a 66 lap race
19 laps x by 4 stints = 76 laps of a 66 lap race

Bastian Ba
6 years 63 days ago

James

Strategy choice would be pick the tyre for the temp.
10c SS & S
16c SS S & M
20c S M & H
25c M & H
30+ H

In order to get a good balance all the tyres are going to have to have high wear rates.
Spain
M 17 laps is 50% wear
H 19 laps is 50% wear
That will have to be changed
17 laps x by 4 stints = 68 laps of a 66 lap race
19 laps x by 4 stints = 76 laps of a 66 lap race

Ah now i got it what you mean, thank you.

Interesting idea, i just think, that in this case the only tyre selection criteria would be the temperature.

James Greer
6 years 63 days ago (edited 6 years 63 days ago)

:) The small print in help guide kind of follows with that idea, in temperature selects tyre.

2.4. Tyres
There are six tyre compounds. The use of these compounds is not restricted in any way.
Super soft tyres - Best in cold, dry conditions
Soft tyres - Best in cool, dry conditions
Medium tyres - Best in warm, dry conditions
Hard tyres - Best in hot, dry conditions
Intermediate wet tyres - Rain tyre for a damp track
Full wet tyres - Rain tyre for a very wet track

It's just the current way the tyres are, we are picking the fastest tyre with the most health, at this moment in time that's Soft's hot or cold 4 stints can do a race.

We are gonna get caught in a loop. Jack will increase wear of soft that makes M the best tyre, then he will increase their wear and H will become the best tyre. Then he will increase their wear to balance it out. May as well just give all tyres high wear now :D

Lukasz Bajbus
6 years 63 days ago

Leave tyre like it is, the change is almost at good point, need only little change. But more important is to change push level and temp of tyre. Just put optimum set is P3 and temperature the time of laps is best.
On optimum temp;
P5 -2 sec/lap
P4 -1 s/l
P3 0 s/l
P2 +1 s/l
P1 +2 s/l
If temp go high you lost another sec and the same if temp is to low. I think this is the way to rebalance tyre and change strategies for good. The value is only to show what I mean and it should be around +/- 0,3 s/l
Sorry for English a think it's all understandable I race in 100 % league

Frank Thomas Moderator
6 years 63 days ago

@James: Then just the fastest tyre on 5 stints will win and the cycle of wear reduction would have to start again, and so on. In the very end the hard will win out as the only one left able to complete one lap from pits to pits without major wear effects, and the wet tyre as the ultimate secret weapon as it was completely forgotten to be included into balancing for a dry race. :-D

Track temperature could be the factor deciding if supers or hards are able to join softs and mediums (and which one of those two has a slight edge over the other) as a competitive tyre for a given race.

James Greer
6 years 62 days ago (edited 6 years 62 days ago)

Harder compounds are already setup to not cope with cooler temperature once they get to a certain level of wear, so doing an extra stint on say H to avoid 50% wear should just be equal to pushing S to the limit with one less stop.

Cold weather H is PL 5 can't go any higher for it keep pace once it has 50% wear, SS has PL 4 & 5 to use as it wears out and cools
Cool weather the same only SS as 3 Push Levels & S has 2, M has 1
Warm weather SS has 4, S has 3 & M has 2, H has 1
Hot weather SS is cooked already and has 4, S is warm and has 4, M is has 3 & H has 2

We won't really know until we try it :D

For example imaginary test track
SS 11.09 % wear
S 11.06%
M 11.03%
H 11.00%

The idea is they all can manage to do a 4 stint race, but weather selects the best tyre to use

Pegado Racing Team
6 years 61 days ago

For the first time i fell it. that was great for my strategy

Frank Thomas Moderator
6 years 61 days ago

James

Harder compounds are already setup to not cope with cooler temperature once they get to a certain level of wear, so doing an extra stint on say H to avoid 50% wear should just be equal to pushing S to the limit with one less stop.

Cold weather H is PL 5 can't go any higher for it keep pace once it has 50% wear, SS has PL 4 & 5 to use as it wears out and cools
Cool weather the same only SS as 3 Push Levels & S has 2, M has 1
Warm weather SS has 4, S has 3 & M has 2, H has 1
Hot weather SS is cooked already and has 4, S is warm and has 4, M is has 3 & H has 2

We won't really know until we try it :D

For example imaginary test track
SS 11.09 % wear
S 11.06%
M 11.03%
H 11.00%

The idea is they all can manage to do a 4 stint race, but weather selects the best tyre to use

Sorry, but no. It would be about the same as just offering one dry compound at all, just with the added difficulty that the manager has to know which of the compounds is the right one for the given temperature for the track. The strategy is always the same, as only fuel weight and pit stop time matters as tyre wear and performance is a given fixed value since you have no selection of different performance/wear combinations anymore. Except to use a slower compound without any benefit to it, which isn't really a choice.

Giving temperature more of an impact, currently it has already an impact but it's not that often a deciding factor between two tyres at all, I say yes. However as Jack wrote it needs some time because of incompatibility concerns with the App. But the tyres need to keep distinctive differences in wear and performance because else you throw all strategic and tactic possibilities out of the window. Using temperature to toggle which of the 4 compounds comes into the performance window of the 3 we know to balance otherwise looks about the same but with different capabilities any tyre still has a possible use to be incorporated into tactics to outplay other teams. To win a race you don't necessarily have to use the strategy with the lowest calculated race time after all, you 'just' have to finish the race first.

James Greer
6 years 61 days ago

9% wear SS using PL 2,3,4 & 5 in Germany @ 5c

They can't hold a candle to Soft's with them having half the wear rate of Super's & an extra few laps of life.

Shaun Peters
6 years 61 days ago

The proof is in the pudding as they say...

Jack Lel
6 years 60 days ago

Jack

Ross

Sounds like a good step, I still would like to see restriction on type of tyres for individual races and also force the use of at least 2 compounds per race.

Yes, and add Hyper Soft and Ultra Soft too probably? :P

I hear these suggestions every day, but we are not planning to implement them, not least because if we just copy F1 we are risking copyright infringement and other issues. Also, these kind of solutions are not really solutions, they are just artificial rules admitting that you can't make an interesting tyre balance in the first place. We don't have that problem. We can make it interesting to use all of the compounds.

I think a solution to the mix of tyres would be to find a way to automatically kick players who are inactive or do not turn up to the races every once in a while, since the 1 tyre stuff is caused by then since they dont have to attend to change push levels

Shaun Peters
6 years 60 days ago

Jack

Jack

Ross

Sounds like a good step, I still would like to see restriction on type of tyres for individual races and also force the use of at least 2 compounds per race.

Yes, and add Hyper Soft and Ultra Soft too probably? :P

I hear these suggestions every day, but we are not planning to implement them, not least because if we just copy F1 we are risking copyright infringement and other issues. Also, these kind of solutions are not really solutions, they are just artificial rules admitting that you can't make an interesting tyre balance in the first place. We don't have that problem. We can make it interesting to use all of the compounds.

I think a solution to the mix of tyres would be to find a way to automatically kick players who are inactive or do not turn up to the races every once in a while, since the 1 tyre stuff is caused by then since they dont have to attend to change push levels

I dont understand how kicking inactives is a solution because they dont change push Level? If your not changing push level in race you are at a disadvantage.

Bastian Ba
6 years 60 days ago

Shaun

Jack

Jack

Ross

Sounds like a good step, I still would like to see restriction on type of tyres for individual races and also force the use of at least 2 compounds per race.

Yes, and add Hyper Soft and Ultra Soft too probably? :P

I hear these suggestions every day, but we are not planning to implement them, not least because if we just copy F1 we are risking copyright infringement and other issues. Also, these kind of solutions are not really solutions, they are just artificial rules admitting that you can't make an interesting tyre balance in the first place. We don't have that problem. We can make it interesting to use all of the compounds.

I think a solution to the mix of tyres would be to find a way to automatically kick players who are inactive or do not turn up to the races every once in a while, since the 1 tyre stuff is caused by then since they dont have to attend to change push levels

I dont understand how kicking inactives is a solution because they dont change push Level? If your not changing push level in race you are at a disadvantage.

would just be one when the Optimum tyre is m with pl 3, but anyhow guys without a Setup are slower so should not cause or solve a problem

Frank Thomas Moderator
6 years 60 days ago

Shaun

Jack

Jack

Ross

Sounds like a good step, I still would like to see restriction on type of tyres for individual races and also force the use of at least 2 compounds per race.

Yes, and add Hyper Soft and Ultra Soft too probably? :P

I hear these suggestions every day, but we are not planning to implement them, not least because if we just copy F1 we are risking copyright infringement and other issues. Also, these kind of solutions are not really solutions, they are just artificial rules admitting that you can't make an interesting tyre balance in the first place. We don't have that problem. We can make it interesting to use all of the compounds.

I think a solution to the mix of tyres would be to find a way to automatically kick players who are inactive or do not turn up to the races every once in a while, since the 1 tyre stuff is caused by then since they dont have to attend to change push levels

I dont understand how kicking inactives is a solution because they dont change push Level? If your not changing push level in race you are at a disadvantage.

He tries to remove, or at least weaken, an obstacle to enforce a two compound rule. The objections against a mandatory 2 compound rule for all leagues are mainly:

Managers that can't attend a race would be even less competitive because different compounds need different push levels which can't be set in the current strategy

It limits the choice of strategies a manager can use

It's more closely to real F1, which this game can't mimic too much because it isn't, and probably can't afford to be, a licensed game

1)Kicking the inactive even sooner won't help much though. It's not the real inactive players that need to be worried about, they're about to be gone anyway, but the players that can't attend races from time to time due to other obligations. So there's nothing else but to allow to set a push level per stint. After the tyre change after which supers and softs are less likely to be stuck to PL1 I think this would be a good change anyway now. The not attending manager still is on a handicap but would be slightly more of a challenge to beat for weaker teams and thus not necessarily to be written off from the start.

2)That's the part I don't like about it. Limiting the possibilities to race and game just for the sake to add a rule that looks like to be 'more realistic'. But as I wrote many times now, make it optional for the leagues to decide and all is fine. Currently we use a two compound rule in our league and it's fine as long as it's new and refreshing but I surely don't want to be stuck with it for forever, especially no matter what happens to the tyres in future.

3)That might be no problem here as real F1 currently not only uses more compounds but also offers only a selection of 3 out of them for every race. Might become more relevant if F1 really dumb down the compound names by just calling the tyres after their position amongst the selection of 3 instead of which compound type they really are (to be fair the names of compound types are somewhat arbitrary as well as a hyper soft in race A can be a slightly different compound as in race B, but at least it's a lot closer to describe the expected characteristics)

James Greer
6 years 60 days ago (edited 6 years 60 days ago)

So what is the plan, what do we want the boss man to do for the next round of updates?

I want closer lifespans & wear rates so all tyres are being used over 50% life.

Take Germany from last night.
SS 15 laps
S lowered to 19 laps instead of being able to do 30 laps.
M lowered to 22 laps instead of being able to do 60 laps
H lowered to 26 laps instead of being able to do 62-64 laps

Might be an exaggeration on my part but SS 9%, S 4% M & H 2% leads me to believe that's how far the tyres can be pushed.

Even that wouldn't work
SS 9% wear is lap 7 50% wear
S also 9% wear would be lap 11 50% wear
M also 9% wear would be lap 15 50% wear
H also 9% wear would be lap 19 50% wear

anyone using M & H on a 3 stopper would have an advantage lol

Bastian Ba
6 years 60 days ago

James

So what is the plan, what do we want the boss man to do for the next round of updates?

I want closer lifespans & wear rates so all tyres are being used over 50% life.

Take Germany from last night.
SS 15 laps
S lowered to 19 laps instead of being able to do 30 laps.
M lowered to 22 laps instead of being able to do 60 laps
H lowered to 26 laps instead of being able to do 62-64 laps

Might be an exaggeration on my part but SS 9%, S 4% M & H 2% leads me to believe that's how far the tyres can be pushed.

Even that wouldn't work
SS 9% wear is lap 7 50% wear
S also 9% wear would be lap 11 50% wear
M also 9% wear would be lap 15 50% wear
H also 9% wear would be lap 19 50% wear

anyone using M & H on a 3 stopper would have an advantage lol

like frank mentioned in the comment before in real formula one they use different tyres dir other reasons. they have the choice between three just using two and i guess would use in many case just One if it would not be mandatory to use two. since as Frank and me mentioned that often ist just not possible to have all tyres work without making them the exact equal tyre.

there are many choices and many good suggestions in the group.
One could be a given tyre selection between 2 compunds per race.
second could be Set up rules to use 2 compunds.
3. work on the track characteristics
4. work on temperature impact
5. change the push level that for example a hard with pl 5 has the same pace as ss on pl 1

i am sure i forget some to mention and i am sure, too that there are many more.

the Main point here is that we reached the limit what we can change at the tyre characteristic itself but have many many options to work on external factors which impact the tyre choice.

i think the best is that we do not create a wishlist, because we do not know how it is possible to implement them in the system.

when i got the consensus right, they want that all compounds will be used during the season, some opportunity to manage tyres during the race and in the best case 2 types per race.

in my opinion the best opportunity is letting the developers think about how they can achieve that in the most elegant way for them, which means is the easiest to build in the current system.

James Greer
6 years 60 days ago

Another option is treat us like babies, take away fuel amount and just select tyres for stint :D

Bastian Ba
6 years 60 days ago

James

Another option is treat us like babies, take away fuel amount and just select tyres for stint :D

could be a solution, makes it a bit too easy, but what could be done about fuel, is that the weight of the first stint has impact on the qualifying so that many players might choose a short first stint.

another One could be that the weight impact/ speed decrease is less that a 2 stop can work.

thinking about the other parameters is the approach.

James Greer
6 years 60 days ago

5 stints of SS @ 7% is equal to 4 stints of S @ 3% in Hungary or it might just be because my drivers are not good is why it's equal.
Anyone know how 3 stints of M @ 1% compares to 4 stints of S @ 3%???

Shaun Peters
6 years 60 days ago

Frank

Shaun

Jack

Jack

Ross

Sounds like a good step, I still would like to see restriction on type of tyres for individual races and also force the use of at least 2 compounds per race.

Yes, and add Hyper Soft and Ultra Soft too probably? :P

I hear these suggestions every day, but we are not planning to implement them, not least because if we just copy F1 we are risking copyright infringement and other issues. Also, these kind of solutions are not really solutions, they are just artificial rules admitting that you can't make an interesting tyre balance in the first place. We don't have that problem. We can make it interesting to use all of the compounds.

I think a solution to the mix of tyres would be to find a way to automatically kick players who are inactive or do not turn up to the races every once in a while, since the 1 tyre stuff is caused by then since they dont have to attend to change push levels

I dont understand how kicking inactives is a solution because they dont change push Level? If your not changing push level in race you are at a disadvantage.

He tries to remove, or at least weaken, an obstacle to enforce a two compound rule. The objections against a mandatory 2 compound rule for all leagues are mainly:

Managers that can't attend a race would be even less competitive because different compounds need different push levels which can't be set in the current strategy

It limits the choice of strategies a manager can use

It's more closely to real F1, which this game can't mimic too much because it isn't, and probably can't afford to be, a licensed game

1)Kicking the inactive even sooner won't help much though. It's not the real inactive players that need to be worried about, they're about to be gone anyway, but the players that can't attend races from time to time due to other obligations. So there's nothing else but to allow to set a push level per stint. After the tyre change after which supers and softs are less likely to be stuck to PL1 I think this would be a good change anyway now. The not attending manager still is on a handicap but would be slightly more of a challenge to beat for weaker teams and thus not necessarily to be written off from the start.

2)That's the part I don't like about it. Limiting the possibilities to race and game just for the sake to add a rule that looks like to be 'more realistic'. But as I wrote many times now, make it optional for the leagues to decide and all is fine. Currently we use a two compound rule in our league and it's fine as long as it's new and refreshing but I surely don't want to be stuck with it for forever, especially no matter what happens to the tyres in future.

3)That might be no problem here as real F1 currently not only uses more compounds but also offers only a selection of 3 out of them for every race. Might become more relevant if F1 really dumb down the compound names by just calling the tyres after their position amongst the selection of 3 instead of which compound type they really are (to be fair the names of compound types are somewhat arbitrary as well as a hyper soft in race A can be a slightly different compound as in race B, but at least it's a lot closer to describe the expected characteristics)

We have just put a poll up in our league to trial 2 compounds per race (currently in favour) I personally think it's a great idea as it's something we can do to liven up races without the developers having to do anything.

I agree the way to go is adjusting other parameters and hopefully the developers will do that...soon.

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