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LIVE NOW: Tyre update #3

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Ege Çağdaş Aladağ
5 years 207 days ago

I am in a %100 2 car league;

I agree that it's caused by the fuel effect being too high. I think S and M are great as they are, but SS and H's could be a bit faster in my humble opinion.

I've been fighting for the WCC lead with my friend for 12 races and we've agreed not to use a mono-soft strategy, so at least 2 different compounds to use. It makes the race and the strategy much more entertaining, but it's always either a 3 or 4 stop, sometimes 2 stops work, but it's rare and most of the time slower.

1 stops are easily out of question, as 50/60+ fuel turns the cars into tank-like tortoises.

James Greer
5 years 207 days ago

I don't think the wear rates are too well balanced

Brazil 21 laps
H uses 33% of the tyre
M uses 44% of the tyre
S uses 55% of the tyre

Does that mean SS is 66% of the tyre doing 21 laps?

Too much life for the length of stints unless you want us to use SS & H 1stop. SS & M 2 stop. SS & S 3stop.

Bastian Ba
5 years 207 days ago

James

I don't think the wear rates are too well balanced

Brazil 21 laps
H uses 33% of the tyre
M uses 44% of the tyre
S uses 55% of the tyre

Does that mean SS is 66% of the tyre doing 21 laps?

Too much life for the length of stints unless you want us to use SS & H 1stop. SS & M 2 stop. SS & S 3stop.

ss will be 110% since it has double wear %
h is normally 2% per lap
m is around 3
s around 4-5
ss around 9-10.

more Life, less life doesn't matter. will be min 3 stops because of weight. the rate just decides what tyre type we use, thats the fastest One.

i guess we should stop talking about the rate and the speed, because that will always lead to 1 dominant strategy, and focus on other parameters for a solution.

Peter Man
5 years 207 days ago

Ran a few races since the most recent tyre update, in 100% league and 50% leagues.

I think the tyre balance at 50% distance is very good now...there are different situations for every type of tyre.

For 100% distance, Softs still have a sizeable edge, but not to the extent as they did previously with x0.50 scaling.

Some data to explain:

Silverstone, GBR 15C, Dry
Tyre Economy: 37
Laps on Soft, before hitting the 50% deg cliff: 15 laps
Laps for Medium to gain on Soft (in a typical stint): 1 lap

Nurburgring, GER 21C, Dry
Tyre Economy: 37
Laps on Soft, before hitting the 50% deg cliff: 14.5 laps
Laps for Medium to gain on Soft (in a typical stint): 1.5 laps

Hungaroring, HUN 24C, Dry
Tyre Economy: 46
Laps on Soft, before hitting the 50% deg cliff: 20 laps
Laps for Medium to gain on Soft (in a typical stint): 0 laps

Valencia, EUR 24C, Dry
Tyre Economy: 51
Laps on Soft, before hitting the 50% deg cliff: 15 laps
Laps for Medium to gain on Soft (in a typical stint): 0 laps

As you can see, the Medium tyre is not given enough laps to gain on the Soft tyre, while Soft is below 50% Tyre. The result is Soft has been chosen by 95% of managers in my league so far.

So I believe, in order to get Softs, Mediums and Hards on the same wavelength, increased scaling is a must.

x0.75 scaling for 100% distance would give Mediums 3 laps to gain on Softs, giving near identical stint times. This would also put more emphasis on live viewer racing, as currently with Softs, you can set a low PL, and not have to attend the live race.

James Greer
5 years 207 days ago (edited 5 years 206 days ago)

I have Australia tomorrow
SS 9%
S 4%
M 3%
H 2%

Can it not be closed right up?
SS 9%
S 8%
M 7%
H 6%

or cutoff some of the lifespan in S, M & H

2,3 & 4% wearing tyres over 15 laps is what I don't understand

SS take right down to the canvas and H are barely scratching the surface.

Tyres lifespan should be:
S does 4 more than SS
M does 4 more than S
H does 4 more than M

Bastian Ba
5 years 207 days ago

Peter

Ran a few races since the most recent tyre update, in 100% league and 50% leagues.

I think the tyre balance at 50% distance is very good now...there are different situations for every type of tyre.

For 100% distance, Softs still have a sizeable edge, but not to the extent as they did previously with x0.50 scaling.

Some data to explain:

Silverstone, GBR 15C, Dry
Tyre Economy: 37
Laps on Soft, before hitting the 50% deg cliff: 15 laps
Laps for Medium to gain on Soft (in a typical stint): 1 lap

Nurburgring, GER 21C, Dry
Tyre Economy: 37
Laps on Soft, before hitting the 50% deg cliff: 14.5 laps
Laps for Medium to gain on Soft (in a typical stint): 1.5 laps

Hungaroring, HUN 24C, Dry
Tyre Economy: 46
Laps on Soft, before hitting the 50% deg cliff: 20 laps
Laps for Medium to gain on Soft (in a typical stint): 0 laps

Valencia, EUR 24C, Dry
Tyre Economy: 51
Laps on Soft, before hitting the 50% deg cliff: 15 laps
Laps for Medium to gain on Soft (in a typical stint): 0 laps

As you can see, the Medium tyre is not given enough laps to gain on the Soft tyre, while Soft is below 50% Tyre. The result is Soft has been chosen by 95% of managers in my league so far.

So I believe, in order to get Softs, Mediums and Hards on the same wavelength, increased scaling is a must.

x0.75 scaling for 100% distance would give Mediums 3 laps to gain on Softs, giving near identical stint times. This would also put more emphasis on live viewer racing, as currently with Softs, you can set a low PL, and not have to attend the live race.

the problem with scaling is, what you gain in one tyre against the others One type will lose. as we can See now, with the supers.

See the tyre types and strategy choice as a range:
h m s ss
before the updates we were on the left side of the range, so just h worked
after the update 2 we were between s and ss
After update 3 we are close to s Maybe a Bit close to m.
with changing tyre characteristics you can just move to the left or right. so at least 2 types will be obsolete.

to make all them work in the current condition you would have to make them close to similar. so other parameters should be checked and used. Maybe track, Maybe fuel,maybe temperature etc.

Peter Man
5 years 207 days ago

Bastian

the problem with scaling is, what you gain in one tyre against the others One type will lose. as we can See now, with the supers.

That can be corrected by making SS faster, but the scaling has to be correct first, then the tyre deltas can be looked at in detail.

Max Rooker
5 years 207 days ago

It might be more balanced, but the supersofts are still totally useless in 95% of the races at 50% distance.

Bastian Ba
5 years 207 days ago

Peter

Bastian

the problem with scaling is, what you gain in one tyre against the others One type will lose. as we can See now, with the supers.

That can be corrected by making SS faster, but the scaling has to be correct first, then the tyre deltas can be looked at in detail.

thats pointless. we will always have one dominant type, Maybe a pair, like s and ss have been.

if we have good scaling now and improve the ss, we either bring them in the same level like s, that they are Technical the same and a choice is pointless.
to have variable strategies the other parameters have to be adjusted, Looks like they are too similar or have close to none effect.
we want different tyre types and different strategies, for that we need diversity in types and in conditions.
whats done at the moment is making tyres more similar and we combine them with too similar conditions, that results in one solution.
an Everything tyre with pl3.

Peter Man
5 years 207 days ago

Bastian

thats pointless. we will always have one dominant type, Maybe a pair, like s and ss have been.

if we have good scaling now and improve the ss, we either bring them in the same level like s, that they are Technical the same and a choice is pointless.

Fundamentally disagree with you here. With increased scaling at 100% distance, SS, Soft, Medium and Hard tyres will still wear out at different relative rates, and give different lap time from each other.

The question and skill then is: Which tyre compound to use? When to use, and in which situation.
Do you go for the pace in the beginning of the stint? Or do you hope to stay in the DRS train, and be quicker at the end of the stint?

Is it faster to drive cautiously with SS/Soft, or attack with Medium/Hard at 'X' track temperature at 'X' track?

With one dominant tyre, strategies are much less varied. At the moment, Softs have an advantage at 100% distance...we all have to drive them at low PLs, typically PL1-PL2. This has sadly resulted in a few players leaving the game, as they felt the skill in live racing has been removed.

By bringing Soft and Medium tyres together in stint pace, it gives not only more strategy options, but keeps both newbie players and experienced players happy.

Softs can be a good tyre for a newer player not familiar with varying Push Levels, and Mediums can be pushed at higher, varying Push Levels by experienced players.

Bastian Ba
5 years 206 days ago

Peter

Bastian

thats pointless. we will always have one dominant type, Maybe a pair, like s and ss have been.

if we have good scaling now and improve the ss, we either bring them in the same level like s, that they are Technical the same and a choice is pointless.

Fundamentally disagree with you here. With increased scaling at 100% distance, SS, Soft, Medium and Hard tyres will still wear out at different relative rates, and give different lap time from each other.

The question and skill then is: Which tyre compound to use? When to use, and in which situation.
Do you go for the pace in the beginning of the stint? Or do you hope to stay in the DRS train, and be quicker at the end of the stint?

Is it faster to drive cautiously with SS/Soft, or attack with Medium/Hard at 'X' track temperature at 'X' track?

With one dominant tyre, strategies are much less varied. At the moment, Softs have an advantage at 100% distance...we all have to drive them at low PLs, typically PL1-PL2. This has sadly resulted in a few players leaving the game, as they felt the skill in live racing has been removed.

By bringing Soft and Medium tyres together in stint pace, it gives not only more strategy options, but keeps both newbie players and experienced players happy.

Softs can be a good tyre for a newer player not familiar with varying Push Levels, and Mediums can be pushed at higher, varying Push Levels by experienced players.

literally you agree with me.

as i wrote you either have a dominant type like it is now s. or you can have a dominant pair, like it was with s and ss.
if you increase wear rate you can move the optimal tyre between Medium and soft, then you have a pair, But anyhow the ss and h are obsolete.

my solutions and or suggestions focus on other factors, i.e. weather which could push the optimal tyre to another One. or different track characteristics, how it is in Monaco where ss is dominant.

Peter Man
5 years 206 days ago

Bastian

as i wrote you either have a dominant type like it is now s. or you can have a dominant pair, like it was with s and ss.
if you increase wear rate you can move the optimal tyre between Medium and soft, then you have a pair, But anyhow the ss and h are obsolete.

Bastian, race in a 50% distance league, and you can see there, that all 4 tyre compounds serve a purpose for different conditions (Perhaps the SS tyre could do with a small pace increase)

Many different strategies used, involving all 4 tyre compounds, so there is no 'always will be a dominant tyre or a dominant pair' as you say, at 50% distance.

Bastian Ba
5 years 206 days ago

Peter

Bastian

as i wrote you either have a dominant type like it is now s. or you can have a dominant pair, like it was with s and ss.
if you increase wear rate you can move the optimal tyre between Medium and soft, then you have a pair, But anyhow the ss and h are obsolete.

Bastian, race in a 50% distance league, and you can see there, that all 4 tyre compounds serve a purpose for different conditions (Perhaps the SS tyre could do with a small pace increase)

Many different strategies used, involving all 4 tyre compounds, so there is no 'always will be a dominant tyre or a dominant pair' as you say, at 50% distance.

i race 75 and 100, and i See a variance at the moment, too, which will be gone when everyone understands the tyres. that variance is caused by the uncertainty and by testing. since i know the difference between 100 and 75 i can conclude how it is there. just adjust my calculations down by 20%. that results in a medium Soft pair domination. ss and h obsolete.

Frank Thomas Moderator
5 years 206 days ago (edited 5 years 206 days ago)

Yes, balancing 3 tyres we can manage. Softs and Mediums as the two tyres offering the options around the 'optimal strategy' (the one for which the lap times due to fuel weight plus the lost time in pits make up the shortest race. Not necessarily the best strategy for an actual race) and the supers for those special tracks and option for the first, and sometimes maybe last, stint. For 50% the latter requires that 2 stop strategies is a viable thing, though. I don't know about 75% and for 100%, as long as fuel weight effect isn't lowered, it used to provide enough playground to make it work although the recent changes seem to move the scale slightly to favour slightly the less stops ones. So I think to make supers really work here they might need a little bit less wear for 1-2 laps more durability, along with a slight speed increase.

The problem are the hards. The softs and mediums cover the option fuel weight leaves us nicely. If they made faster to make those longer stints only they can do work then we're back as it was in the past with hards on about equal fuel being similar or even faster than softs, especially on the tracks that suit them. Just making them a little bit faster it doesn't change anything until the moment they are about as fast as mediums and start to replace them with their added advantage of not having to worry about wear at all, their broader range of push levels available and better ability to withstand heat generation (being slower to warm up and easier to cool).

If you lower the effect of fuel weight in general you move just the balance away from supers and softs towards mediums and hards and make supers useless. If you make those faster they just replace softs, but since supers wear twice as fast than those it means they have to be a lot faster to overcome quite some added fuel weight, even though with slightly less effect on lap time, split up amongst the remaining stints, which still is likely to mean another pit stop may often loose less time than that and since supers would now make up for that then there's little to stop you just going on with supers beyond the first stint because if they are able to pull that off once they're likely to make up for another added stop again, and again, and again.

That's why I also think, like Bastian, that in order to achieve a 4th useful (dry) tyre there needs to be another variable to put them into play.

That might be another track constant, or putting more weight into the ones already present, which would lead to set them up for 1-3 must use tyres for each track. Then it might be a variable, like temperature, with the same result but shifting according to the given condition. If known, like temperature, then over time with some manager experience it's the same as with the track, if it's something unknown to us then it's something to figure out for every race, which hopefully is possible with training, or pure luck hitting it with the chosen strategy (not something I'd like). Or putting another divider between the compounds into the tyres, like not the same fuel weight effect, broadening the set of available strategies but another thing making balancing even harder. Again that divider could be constant or variable and a know value or something hidden for the latter (the constant is probably hidden initially but being constant it will be figured out over time anyway).

James Greer
5 years 205 days ago (edited 5 years 205 days ago)

Lifespan Lifespan Lifespan lol Someone has to have noticed SS is the only tyre using most of it's lifespan!

If SS does 14 laps to blow a tyre
S should do 18 to blow-out
M should do 22 to blow-out
H should do 26 to blow-out

This S double SS, M double S and H double M has to go.

Australia, This Driver should of popped his cloggs on lap 19

SS 11, S 15, M 19 & H 23.

Malaysia:
SS 9, S 13, M 17 & H 21

China:
SS 7, S 11, M 15 & H 19

Bahrain:
SS 10, S 14, M 18 & H 22

Spain:
SS 6, S 10, M 14 & H 18

Monaco:
SS 15, S 19, M 23 & H 27

Turkey:
SS 7, S 11, M 15 & H 19

Britain:
SS 9, S 13, M 17 & H 21

Germany:
SS 10, S 14, M 18 & H 22

Hungary:
SS 13, S 17, M 21 & H 25

Europe:
SS 9, S 13, M 17 & H 21

Belgium:
SS 6, S 10, M 14 & H 18

Italy:
SS 9, S 13, M 17 & H 21

Singapore:
SS 12, S 16, M 20 & H 24

Japan:
SS 7, S 11, M 15 & H 19

Brazil:
SS 10, S 14, M 18 & H 22

Abu Dhabi:
SS 11, S 15, M 19 & H 23

That will give you a rough idea to play around with wear rates and lifespans :)

Someone likely say them numbers are no good for 25% racing, 11 lap race in Belgium SS 3, S 5, M 7 & H 9. 1 stop or 2 stop depending on tyre choice :D

Felix Perez
5 years 205 days ago

I am seeing some race today in Abu Dhabi and with 30c of temperature the best tires are soft, this can not be real!

Frank Thomas Moderator
5 years 205 days ago

James

...
This S double SS, M double S and H double M has to go.
...

At least partially that has gone already. S is still double SS, M is ~1.41* S and H is ~1.41* M and double S

Bastian Ba
5 years 204 days ago

Frank

James

...
This S double SS, M double S and H double M has to go.
...

At least partially that has gone already. S is still double SS, M is ~1.41* S and H is ~1.41* M and double S

thats, the only things regarding tyre wear Change, which could be an impacting change.

Channing from exponential difference to linear.
wear rates like:
h 5
m 6
s 7
ss 8
Maybe a bigger difference.
in that case One tyre might Not be totally obsolete.
i.e. in 100 ss can make Sense as a strategic addition for one stint, where m and h are useless you bring in at least a 2. type.
in 75 its pointless because the life span of the ss is way too short and less possibilities to compensate in the other stints. at least the Medium is somehow useful here. so with that adjustment it might be possible that 3 tyres can be used in 75, still with a massive s domination, but at least some variance.

James Greer
5 years 204 days ago (edited 5 years 204 days ago)

SS is short for a reason, same way H is short on a few tracks to try and push SS out.
Numbers I gave are based on 3 compounds in F1 game we have 4, so it's a little harder to get a good balance.

Australia best tyre is S
Malaysia best tyre M
China best tyre H
Bahrain best tyre is M
Spain best tyre is H
Monaco is either SS or S depending on temp

Look down the list I gave you will see it favours one tyre more than others :)

I have China tonight look at speed difference between SS & H and you think they don't last long enough?

SS currently 11 laps and I want to lower it to 7 laps and make S 11 laps to give H a fighting chance to be the best tyre for the track.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place when the stints are this short

This is what I have in mind with the numbers I gave above

Bastian Ba
5 years 204 days ago

at first this numbers are different during the race, even with way less fuel on ss you are not 2 seconds faster.
i tried it at the begin to calculate an optimal strategy, these numbers are Not reliable.
if they were true ss only strategies with 10 stops were the fastest.
you would be 112 seconds faster in 56 laps which is equal to 5,6 stops, When we account for a 20 s stop.
when we add the stops for a 3 stop hard only Strategy , a 8 stop ss would be faster than h. compared to m a 6 stop strat possible.

second the ss does not work for 11 laps, it will depreciate in speed after 6 and rapidly after 8. so should Not be increased in case of 100% race.

in case of 75% it should because on many tracks you can use it just for 6 laps.

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