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Qualifying Nightmare

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Chris Py
5 years 14 days ago

Thanks @Gert.

I had a few weeks forum "break" and didn't have the energy to re-read the entire thread again. I remember I had read to a few posts after jack's post but that must have been his post on page 3 :)

For some reason I have started to favor TE research before FE research lately, even if everyone has said that FE is slightly more important. No idea why I did this, it just felt better. This could be a reason for my much poorer qualifying results this season. :)

Joao Pedro
5 years 13 days ago (Last edited by Joao Pedro 5 years 12 days ago)

I would like to know how Fuel economy affects qualifying lap. This is my car AFTER this race. Before the race my fuel economy was exactly 48. Other managers had fuel economy very close to 100, around 2 * my_fuel_economy. I did 1st and 3rd with 50 points less, how can I really believe that fuel economy is important to do a good qualifying lap? I'm very confused about that.

Alessandro Bonifacivs
5 years 12 days ago (Last edited by Alessandro Bonifacivs 5 years 12 days ago)

Joao

I would like to know how Fuel economy affects qualifying lap. This is my car AFTER this race. Before the race my fuel economy was exactly 48. Other managers have fuel economy very close to 100, around 2 * my_fuel_economy. I did 1st and 3rd with 50 points less, how can I really believe that fuel economy is important to do a good qualifying lap? I'm very confused about that.

In fact, looking at your car compared to cars which have FE close to 100, is hard to believe.

I can also say that in the league that I am actually doing I had a ridiculous fuel economy at the beginning of the season compared to the others but a good car in the rest of attributes: my Quali times were very very good except for bad race results due to the much heavier car.
So, I know that is difficult to say how much my car was better in the other attributes... but I think that these situations prove that FE is not so important for Quali performance.

And - again - why the same teams are still doing their lap before than others? I don't see the promised randomness ?
There is a thing that I don't like even if I appreciate the fact that the staff is very available: the silence.
They could say "hey guys, we are investigating or working about that but is not so easy or we have other priorities..."

Gary Collyer
5 years 12 days ago

Jack

Hi all, I have an update on the situation. Our investigation in to the simulation did not find what I expected. Though the cars always run in the same order in qualifying, there was clearly code to ensure that all cars had the same conditions for their laps. It should have been identical for all cars, at least that is the clear intention of the code in the simulator.

Given the strength of feeling among the community that something is happening, I am not satisfied with that answer. So I have instructed the team to randomise the order that cars run qualifying in from now on, to see if it breaks the pattern. If it does, then it will reveal that the running order is associated with the effect. If the effect survives this update, then it is likely something else.

We are now deploying that update to the service, over the next 3-4 hours, which ranomises the qualifying running order. It should be live for all races after this time. If there is an impact associated with the running order, which should be the only consistent thread between all the qualifying sessions, then we should start to see the pattern disrupted by this update. It will allow us to dig further in to the effect and locating its source.

Oldest teams still go first each time, wasn't that supposed to have changed to random?

Matteo Capriotti
5 years 12 days ago

I have few questions for the devs
Qualifying simulator is the same of race simulator? If yes is the random or error level the same?

In this thread there is data demonstrating that this qualifying problem affect not all the players, why?

In your opinion why (not in all race, but in too many if it's random fault) drivers slower than mine (and with lower level) qualify in front of me? then in race i overtake them easily with a better race pace faster of tenths?

One thing for sure is that fuel load should affect qualifying time to have more strategy option

Dazaster Price
5 years 11 days ago

Hi all,

I have done hours of deep diving into the simulator code to see why you might be experiencing what some are calling "Favoritism" and the qualifying running order still not being random and older teams or people that pay for things with real money getting favored.

First off the sim has no idea who spent money and doesn't care. It is given details about the car attributes, driver attributes, setup and strategy.

Practice, Qualifying, Race all run through the same code path for advancing the car around the track.

Practice and Qualifying both run pretty similar as there is no other cars on the track.

Here is a qualifying from my league a few days ago in Austria, only time stamps, lap times and driver names are shown.
The qualifying round happened twice because of processing load (We do over 1500 races at peak times). In such cases the first results are always taken in favor of the second running.

But in this case it shows 2 qualifying runs with different running orders and results.

Run 1 - The one we took qualifying results from.
Running order (The order cars do the qualifying lap )

12/11 18:50:47 A Williams
12/11 18:50:49 A Zanardi
12/11 18:50:51 J Chadwick
12/11 18:50:52 A Robinson
12/11 18:50:54 V Munoz
12/11 18:50:56 T Dennis
12/11 18:50:58 E Prydero
12/11 18:50:59 S Jansen
12/11 18:51:01 D Poile
12/11 18:51:03 A Baeten
12/11 18:51:04 S Taylor
12/11 18:51:06 A Morris
12/11 18:51:08 W Davies
12/11 18:51:10 G Raggi
12/11 18:51:11 D Halász
12/11 18:51:13 S Thompson
12/11 18:51:15 L Hamilton
12/11 18:51:17 G Russell
12/11 18:51:18 R Ciampi
12/11 18:51:20 P Włodarczy
12/11 18:51:22 J Nowak
12/11 18:51:23 R Ismael
12/11 18:51:25 G Paz
12/11 18:51:27 J Brundle
12/11 18:51:28 M Schumacher
12/11 18:51:30 X Morris
12/11 18:51:32 v Koponen
12/11 18:51:34 B Monger
12/11 18:51:35 P Evans
12/11 18:51:37 L de Jong
12/11 18:51:39 P Claeys
12/11 18:51:40 J Klein

The results were:

12/11 18:51:40 Position 1 : "J Klein" 65.465s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 2 : "G Raggi" 65.467s +0.003s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 3 : "A Morris" 65.488s +0.023s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 4 : "A Robinson" 65.489s +0.024s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 5 : "S Thompson" 65.491s +0.026s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 6 : "B Monger" 65.495s +0.030s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 7 : "G Paz" 65.495s +0.031s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 8 : "X Morris" 65.499s +0.034s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 9 : "S Taylor" 65.507s +0.042s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 10 : "L Hamilton" 65.511s +0.047s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 11 : "T Dennis" 65.513s +0.048s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 12 : "P Claeys" 65.520s +0.055s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 13 : "E Prydero" 65.521s +0.056s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 14 : "M Schumacher" 65.521s +0.057s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 15 : "J Nowak" 65.522s +0.058s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 16 : "D Poile" 65.527s +0.062s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 17 : "A Williams" 65.529s +0.064s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 18 : "J Chadwick" 65.553s +0.088s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 19 : "R Ciampi" 65.626s +0.161s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 20 : "P Włodarczyk" 65.628s +0.163s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 21 : "A Baeten" 65.630s +0.165s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 22 : "A Zanardi" 65.776s +0.311s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 23 : "L de Jong" 65.853s +0.389s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 24 : "G Russell" 69.115s +3.651s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 25 : "P Evans" 69.133s +3.668s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 26 : "J Brundle" 69.465s +4.000s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 27 : "v Koponen" 71.485s +6.020s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 28 : "D Halász" 72.036s +6.571s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 29 : "V Munoz" 72.872s +7.407s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 30 : "W Davies" 73.056s +7.592s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 31 : "S Jansen" 73.141s +7.677s
12/11 18:51:40 Position 32 : "R Ismael" 73.144s +7.679s

The second run order was:

12/11 18:51:54 P Claeys
12/11 18:51:56 J Klein
12/11 18:51:58 P Evans
12/11 18:51:59 A Robinson
12/11 18:52:01 V Munoz
12/11 18:52:03 R Ciampi
12/11 18:52:04 A Baeten
12/11 18:52:06 G Raggi
12/11 18:52:08 T Dennis
12/11 18:52:09 G Russell
12/11 18:52:11 G Paz
12/11 18:52:13 J Brundle
12/11 18:52:15 J Nowak
12/11 18:52:16 W Davies
12/11 18:52:18 S Jansen
12/11 18:52:20 B Monger
12/11 18:52:22 A Williams
12/11 18:52:23 M Schumacher
12/11 18:52:25 S Taylor
12/11 18:52:27 P Włodarczyk
12/11 18:52:28 L Hamilton
12/11 18:52:30 X Morris
12/11 18:52:32 D Halász
12/11 18:52:33 L de Jong
12/11 18:52:35 E Prydero
12/11 18:52:37 v Koponen
12/11 18:52:39 D Poile
12/11 18:52:40 A Zanardi
12/11 18:52:42 S Thompson
12/11 18:52:44 J Chadwick
12/11 18:52:45 A Morris
12/11 18:52:47 R Ismael

The second run results were:

12/11 18:52:47 Position 1 : "S Taylor" 65.416s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 2 : "E Prydero" 65.416s +0.000s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 3 : "J Chadwick" 65.422s +0.006s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 4 : "T Dennis" 65.486s +0.070s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 5 : "A Robinson" 65.487s +0.071s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 6 : "L Hamilton" 65.488s +0.072s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 7 : "X Morris" 65.495s +0.079s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 8 : "R Ciampi" 65.497s +0.081s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 9 : "G Paz" 65.500s +0.084s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 10 : "M Schumacher" 65.501s +0.085s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 11 : "D Poile" 65.502s +0.086s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 12 : "J Klein" 65.506s +0.090s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 13 : "A Williams" 65.518s +0.102s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 14 : "S Thompson" 65.520s +0.104s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 15 : "A Baeten" 65.521s +0.105s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 16 : "B Monger" 65.521s +0.105s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 17 : "P Włodarczyk" 65.525s +0.109s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 18 : "J Nowak" 65.531s +0.115s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 19 : "P Claeys" 65.628s +0.212s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 20 : "G Raggi" 65.629s +0.213s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 21 : "A Morris" 65.631s +0.215s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 22 : "A Zanardi" 65.687s +0.271s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 23 : "L de Jong" 65.867s +0.451s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 24 : "P Evans" 69.086s +3.670s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 25 : "G Russell" 69.155s +3.739s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 26 : "J Brundle" 69.494s +4.078s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 27 : "v Koponen" 71.493s +6.077s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 28 : "D Halász" 72.108s +6.693s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 29 : "V Munoz" 72.936s +7.520s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 30 : "W Davies" 72.979s +7.563s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 31 : "R Ismael" 73.067s +7.651s
12/11 18:52:47 Position 32 : "S Jansen" 73.096s +7.680s

I can't share the actual car setups because that is down to confidentiality both internally within iGP and teams don't always want there strategies disclosed.

I can say not only is there now randomness in the actual running order of cars, there is some randomness to some additional non controllable attributes. In both cases these values differed both runs too sometimes having some positive affects and some negative.

If you are still not convinced, please give me a race id and reasons you feel you should be doing better than team x,y,z I can look into the logging for the qualifying but this may not be a instant response as there is a lot of things going on in the background for iGP Manager.

Matteo Capriotti
5 years 11 days ago (Last edited by Matteo Capriotti 5 years 11 days ago)

Darren

Hi all,

....

If you are still not convinced, please give me a race id and reasons you feel you should be doing better than team x,y,z I can look into the logging for the qualifying but this may not be a instant response as there is a lot of things going on in the background for iGP Manager.

LOL i never started a race in a good position like in your simulation (second run) , my driver is Ciampi.

Unfortunately you take in consideration the only race i run with that driver cause i usually run with another driver, i'll try him in the next race.

I'm not convinced of your simulation but i never believed in the favoritism theory and i believe in your good faith.

Darren in your simulation the driver G Paz is a level 13 driver and i think his car have lower skills level than the others but he qualified very good for his ability. I noticed that in others race during this championship can you check that?

I start to believe there is a hidden qualy skill or something like is not working as intented

Wambou Wambou
5 years 11 days ago

Darren

The sim is given details about the car attributes, driver attributes, setup and strategy.

For Car/driver attributes and setup, that makes sense.

But how does strategy influences qualification ?
Is it just the first stint tyre type that is used or there is something else ?
It seems strange that the number of stints might influence qualification.

Thanks for the insight, even though I did not experienced these problems for now.

B18 Harry
5 years 11 days ago

Okay, just a couple of things. Is there some background code that makes some drivers better qualifying, better on their tyres etc? Also how can some drivers have completely maxed stats but only be level 18, while some are level 19, some are level 20?
And finally, why can’t fuel loads effect your qualifying. This would mean more of a mix in strategies as people would fuel less to qualify higher. It’s ridiculous that you could fuel lower for a 3 stop wet race, yet be 17 places lower than someone fuelled a lot longer. It makes it pointless to try different strategies out

B18 Harry
5 years 9 days ago

Am I writing in invisible ink?

Chris Py
5 years 9 days ago

Mark

Okay, just a couple of things. Is there some background code that makes some drivers better qualifying, better on their tyres etc? Also how can some drivers have completely maxed stats but only be level 18, while some are level 19, some are level 20?
And finally, why can’t fuel loads effect your qualifying. This would mean more of a mix in strategies as people would fuel less to qualify higher. It’s ridiculous that you could fuel lower for a 3 stop wet race, yet be 17 places lower than someone fuelled a lot longer. It makes it pointless to try different strategies out

I never saw any maxed drivers that only was level 18, that's interesting. Do you have a link to one?

If they would change it to count fuel loads during qualify. Then everyone would run shorter first stint. I like how it is now, when no matter what strategy I chose, I can still qualify high if I developed my car and driver properly. And you can see the first two laps as extended qualifying anyway WITH added fuel loads (since there are no DRS or Boost). After the first two laps, most of the lightest cars will be in front. If the qualifying had taken fuel load into account, then the light cars would qualify in front PLUS pull away further during the first two laps. That would only be boring in my opinion. I really like the overtaking during the first laps, the excitement of who is lighter and who is on what strategy is extended beyond qualifying.

Also, somewhere I read a post from Jack where he stated that they have tried it and it didn't get the desired effect.

Gustavo Heiden Super Mod
5 years 9 days ago (Last edited by Gustavo Heiden 5 years 9 days ago)

Mark, you went off-topic, so I'll try to answer that in few words. When you max-out an young driver from Academy, they get up to main level 18, because the Experience stat isn't high (usually 4 or 5). Then as experience levels up, you would expect also driver main level going up - but they won't!
If you leave one mental skill to be trained when your driver's experience reaches level 20, then you'll have this one's main level going up as well =)

Chris here's a link to a lvl 18 maxed on stats...

https://igpmanager.com/app/d=driver&id=5001965

Chris Py
5 years 9 days ago

Thanks Gustavo. May I ask if there are any disadvantages when your driver is level 18 if everything else is maxed? Or maybe even a benefit such as cheaper salary etc. ? (Sorry for off topic. If this leads to more questions, I will start a new thread instead)

Gert Rose Super Mod
5 years 9 days ago

No disadvantage, he has the same speed.
Advantage is you can keep training him longer at a higher rate than 3 points per training because he will not show as red stars when you are level 18 or above, instead of level 20.

B18 Harry
5 years 8 days ago

Thanks for that Gustavo. I thought it was still on topic as I was trying to figure out why some drivers seem to qualify better than others, and thought it might be down to some background code. For example a driver could have secret skill of great qualifying, or better on their tyres etc. There’s been talk of it in other threads but never had a straight answer about it.

Vance Sim
5 years 8 days ago

I highly doubt there's anything by way of secret stats, as I've seen things drivers without maxed stats getting pole late in the season (Elite, all 20 Talent, etc.).

Likely if there's anything it's algorithmic, similar to what Jack mentioned in a previous post on this thread about how qualifying used to be influenced by earliest-created teams going on track first and latest-created teams going on track last; this was why I suspected date of team creation had an influence in qualy results as I'd noticed before the changes that managers with older accounts tended to have consistently poor qualy on a scale that's not random.

Apart from that, I think now qualifying is highly random but the difference in times seems to have gotten smaller if I don't remember wrong, no longer keep track of data so someone can correct me on this. Like in Monaco you can have top 10 separated by 0.05 or less, similar for other tracks, may not be as extreme but difference is pretty minuscule. Gap between pole and 2nd in F1 can be gap between 1st and 20th or 30th on iGP. So it's pretty much a lottery IMO especially with cars of similar design, but at least there isn't a slant towards newer-created teams now.

Matteo Capriotti
5 years 7 days ago

Nik

I highly doubt there's anything by way of secret stats, as I've seen things drivers without maxed stats getting pole late in the season (Elite, all 20 Talent,

That is the cofirmation that there is something wrong with qualy, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a secret stats.

I have seen too a driver level 13 (with a manager level 13= car less skilled) in front of many level 17 18 19 drivers all talent 20. That happened too much times to be only a random effect.
In the same league my driver level 17 weren't able to stay in the first half of grid with same tyre, and random never helped me. (This is no random imho)

So....when a level 13 stay in front is random but when a level 17 stay always on the back what's that?

I don't know the simulator code, but there is something wrong for sure.

Random is broken?
Driver's error is broken?
Again, i don't know but i'm tired

Devs said that it seems all ok, maybe they are right, but in this case i suggest them to run simulation with different random level or different driver error level. A IT guy once said to me that in the code random is never a real random. Please have further investigation

Gustavo Heiden Super Mod
5 years 7 days ago

Dear Matteo, in late season a lvl 13 team can have good qualifying laps, because the race simulator consider two main factors to when running a lap:
1-cars which are going to be all 100% attributes;
2-Driver skills which are going to be pretty good unless mental (that has near no impact in a lap).

Matteo Capriotti
5 years 5 days ago

Gustavo

Dear Matteo, in late season a lvl 13 team can have good qualifying laps, because the race simulator consider two main factors to when running a lap:
1-cars which are going to be all 100% attributes;
2-Driver skills which are going to be pretty good unless mental (that has near no impact in a lap).

Dear Gustavo,

1) the level 13 driver had good qualy in middle season too when he has not a maxed car, while me and more experienced players had a 100% in the big 4 skills (so again how is possible to be only a random thing?)

2)that level 13 driver have all driving and mental skills to 13 and he manager to have a good qualy too many times to be only a random thing. And again why me and more experienced Players than me we never reached a good qualy position? While others experienced players stay always in top positions (car 100% for all)

If you haven't experienced this issue you think this is only a complain but it's not.

IF you are not competing in a league with more than about 10 15 experienced players you'll never see the problem.

If you don't see the problem it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
5 years 5 days ago

I too have experienced the qualifying problem this season. I have been playing the game for nearly 5 years and up until now have always had a mixed bag when it comes to qualifying, sometimes good, sometimes mid field and occasionally towards the back. This season for the first time ever I have consistently qualified in the last one or two. This is definitely not random. The same team and drivers last season in a different (but still competitive) league were regularly qualifying well and winning the occasional race. This season has been an absolute nightmare.
I must admit that never having experienced it I was sceptical about this qualifying nightmare but honestly, once you've experienced it you'll know.

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