ios-personmd-notifications md-help-circle

Profile

  • Guest
    medal 0
  • Posts: 21
  • Post Likes: 3765

Notifications

  • No Unread Notifications

Unresolved
Qualifying Nightmare

warning
This thread is closed. Threads older than 6 weeks are closed automatically. To continue this discussion, create a new thread.
medal 5525
4 years 167 days ago

Marissa
Been noticing this but usually only dragging me to midpack and finding a points spot by race end. Unfortunately, fuel loads do seem to alter qualifying spots as well as my lighter fuel load driver almost always outqualifies the heavier fuel load


Mine would be the other way around. Heavier load typically qualifies higher. 
md-quotelink
medal 6662 Super Mod
4 years 167 days ago (Last edited by Gustavo Heiden 4 years 167 days ago)
This is the odd behaviour that you clearly can see in Brazilian iGP (because the DRS bug still happens there).


Finish line "A" is the correct one, so when it's lap three all cars have to do another lap in order to get DRS. Although I think some cars have the Finish line "B", so when they start lap three, they are already able to get DRS.
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 166 days ago
Gustavo
This is the odd behaviour that you clearly can see in Brazilian iGP (because the DRS bug still happens there).

Finish line "A" is the correct one, so when it's lap three all cars have to do another lap in order to get DRS. Although I think some cars have the Finish line "B", so when they start lap three, they are already able to get DRS.



I’ve noticed that happen, too, Gustavo. Thought I had lost the plot when I saw a few DRS icons pop up after lap 2!! How long has that bug been around? Do you know? More importantly will it ever been fixed by the devs πŸ‘€ 

It’s a minor bug but it’s a very irritating one at that! πŸ˜•
md-quotelink
medal 5289 CEO & CTO
4 years 166 days ago (Last edited by Jack Basford 4 years 166 days ago)
Gustavo
Ross
Could you explain more accurately how this system works?

I'd appreciate that too.


Assuming I understood, you were questioning where the cars start relative to the start/finish line for qualifying. I thought this was quite a good question anyway, because it could make a difference. But I asked the simulator developers, and they clarified that there is no link to this. The cars all start in the exact same position on the track and, like in real life, they must run an entire lap of the circuit once before they even start the qualifying lap.

Chris

Marissa
Been noticing this but usually only dragging me to midpack and finding a points spot by race end. Unfortunately, fuel loads do seem to alter qualifying spots as well as my lighter fuel load driver almost always outqualifies the heavier fuel load


Mine would be the other way around. Heavier load typically qualifies higher. 

Actually, that raises an interesting topic. Did you know that fuel economy can impact your qualifying performance? It is an attribute a lot of people neglect and think is unimportant, instead focusing everything on "the big four". Your car(s) must carry 3 laps of fuel (out lap, hot lap, in lap) for a run in qualifying. Since different cars burn fuel at different rates, some will be slightly heavier on their qualifying laps than others. Could this be the missing link many of you were looking for? I wonder if there is a link in the qualifying trend to the fuel economy attribute.

Many might not be aware of this also, but drivers can make errors on any lap, qualifying or the race. This can sometimes account for tenths of a second but is more random, so I would not expect such a clear pattern as many have reported.

Another question for everyone: Has anything changed since we randomised the running order for qualifying?
md-quotelink
medal 5525
4 years 166 days ago
Re: my comment on page 1 of this thread Jack,  i wouldn't imagine my cars fuel stat was much higher from the previous race (but could have been). Can't honestly recall how far through the season it was or what the stat was but after qualifying well down the order pretty much every race i pulled P1 and P2, and then went back to being down the order. 
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 166 days ago

Jack
Gustavo
Ross
Could you explain more accurately how this system works?

I'd appreciate that too.


Assuming I understood, you were questioning where the cars start relative to the start/finish line for qualifying. I thought this was quite a good question anyway, because it could make a difference. But I asked the simulator developers, and they clarified that there is no link to this. The cars all start in the exact same position on the track and, like in real life, they must run an entire lap of the circuit once before they even start the qualifying lap.

Chris

Marissa
Been noticing this but usually only dragging me to midpack and finding a points spot by race end. Unfortunately, fuel loads do seem to alter qualifying spots as well as my lighter fuel load driver almost always outqualifies the heavier fuel load


Mine would be the other way around. Heavier load typically qualifies higher. 

Actually, that raises an interesting topic. Did you know that fuel economy can impact your qualifying performance? It is an attribute a lot of people neglect and think is unimportant, instead focusing everything on "the big four". Your car(s) must carry 3 laps of fuel (out lap, hot lap, in lap) for a run in qualifying. Since different cars burn fuel at different rates, some will be slightly heavier on their qualifying laps than others. Could this be the missing link many of you were looking for? I wonder if there is a link in the qualifying trend to the fuel economy attribute.

Many might not be aware of this also, but drivers can make errors on any lap, qualifying or the race. This can sometimes account for tenths of a second but is more random, so I would not expect such a clear pattern as many have reported.

Another question for everyone: Has anything changed since we randomised the running order for qualifying?


Hi Jack,

today we have found that the order of qualifications has not changed, it is all the same as before.

md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 165 days ago
Francesco

Jack
Gustavo
Ross
Could you explain more accurately how this system works?

I'd appreciate that too.


Assuming I understood, you were questioning where the cars start relative to the start/finish line for qualifying. I thought this was quite a good question anyway, because it could make a difference. But I asked the simulator developers, and they clarified that there is no link to this. The cars all start in the exact same position on the track and, like in real life, they must run an entire lap of the circuit once before they even start the qualifying lap.

Chris

Marissa
Been noticing this but usually only dragging me to midpack and finding a points spot by race end. Unfortunately, fuel loads do seem to alter qualifying spots as well as my lighter fuel load driver almost always outqualifies the heavier fuel load


Mine would be the other way around. Heavier load typically qualifies higher. 

Actually, that raises an interesting topic. Did you know that fuel economy can impact your qualifying performance? It is an attribute a lot of people neglect and think is unimportant, instead focusing everything on "the big four". Your car(s) must carry 3 laps of fuel (out lap, hot lap, in lap) for a run in qualifying. Since different cars burn fuel at different rates, some will be slightly heavier on their qualifying laps than others. Could this be the missing link many of you were looking for? I wonder if there is a link in the qualifying trend to the fuel economy attribute.

Many might not be aware of this also, but drivers can make errors on any lap, qualifying or the race. This can sometimes account for tenths of a second but is more random, so I would not expect such a clear pattern as many have reported.

Another question for everyone: Has anything changed since we randomised the running order for qualifying?


Hi Jack,

today we have found that the order of qualifications has not changed, it is all the same as before.



Hi, are you speaking about the order with whom the drivers are doing their quali lap or do you mean that the randomnes that Jack told us is now introduced has actually no effects on the results? 

A manager observed that in our league in the race that took place in the evening of the 15th October the drivers still joined the track still in the same order... 😣
md-quotelink
medal 6662 Super Mod
4 years 165 days ago
I've always though about Fuel Economy affecting qualifying lap, that's why I have my own strategy of spending points there.
Every tenths you can get in a competitive League can mean better starting positions.

I've only done a few races after the update, I can say that tonight (16/10) in two of my teams I got quite a distance (+10 cars) between my drivers (heavier always behind).
Did you change that too?  [Driver weight affecting performance]
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 165 days ago
Simply confirm what you said alessandro. The order in which the teams take to the track in qualifying has remained unchanged, it is still in order of seniority
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 165 days ago (Last edited by Alessandro Bonifacivs 4 years 162 days ago)
Francesco
Simply confirm what you said alessandro. The order in which the teams take to the track in qualifying has remained unchanged, it is still in order of seniority


Thx, hopefully Jack can ask to the simulation team about that... :)

@Gustavo 
Fuel economy affecting quali lap is an interesting point. I'm also pretty sure that the heavier driver does on average slower quali lap times but I cannot understand why.
This is only an hypothesis but I think that if you do a strategy with a considerable fuel load you will never take the best position with the same tyres. 
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 162 days ago (Last edited by Alessandro Bonifacivs 4 years 160 days ago)
I hope the question hasn't been forgotten... (I'm speaking about Jack) 😣
md-quotelink
medal 6662 Super Mod
4 years 162 days ago
Alessandro, as far as I know, driver weight affecting on car pace is currently under development, that means you can have a 90kg driver at the moment without any loss.

About fuel load, as Jack said:
Your car(s) must carry 3 laps of fuel (out lap, hot lap, in lap)

Therefore, we can try to spend points in Fuel Economy in order to try to use a litre less during practice (I'm assuming that if we need 8.1L to do three laps, iGP will put 9L).
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 160 days ago
Just finished qualified 10th and 15th.  Same fuel load and my drivers have better experience yet I'm behind people.  The reality is in my opinion it is a simple choice.  Race fuel load is used in quali or we don't refuel.

I also regularly have the heavier driver qualifying ahead of the lighter one.  When your league is full of good level 20 teams, the random nature is massive.  Qualify outside the top ten on the same strategy or you might as well turn off the race.  I can't believe that IGP want people turning off as the qualifying system is a massive turn off.

Testing should be done with a few leagues to see the impact of this on competitive leagues.  Don't penalise those that have been playing long enough to have established level 20
md-quotelink
medal 5003 Super Mod
4 years 160 days ago
Adam.

Whilst I agree with you that we should qualify on stint 1 fuel loads (I have suggested this before) to make it work properly the pit stop times have to become proportional to the amount of fuel taken on board. If someone runs a very light car on SS tyres which puts them at the front of the grid, they will have a very fast car in stint 1 and possibly a big lead after a few laps. It makes sense that they then need to be penalised by a longer pit stop to take on more fuel.

Getting the balance right wouldn't be an easy task.

Also, before very long the top managers would work out the optimum strategy. Everyone will copy it and we will be back here again. Assume the optimum strategy for a circuit is 9 laps SS for stint 1, that's what many mangers will do, then how do you differentiate between the cars for qualifying?

It's a tricky old problem.
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 160 days ago

Kevin
Adam.

Whilst I agree with you that we should qualify on stint 1 fuel loads (I have suggested this before) to make it work properly the pit stop times have to become proportional to the amount of fuel taken on board. If someone runs a very light car on SS tyres which puts them at the front of the grid, they will have a very fast car in stint 1 and possibly a big lead after a few laps. It makes sense that they then need to be penalised by a longer pit stop to take on more fuel.

Getting the balance right wouldn't be an easy task.

Also, before very long the top managers would work out the optimum strategy. Everyone will copy it and we will be back here again. Assume the optimum strategy for a circuit is 9 laps SS for stint 1, that's what many mangers will do, then how do you differentiate between the cars for qualifying?

It's a tricky old problem.


It isnt easy. But the current lottery is unmanageable.  I agree put stops need to reflect fuel being onboarded.  Raeng.org estimate .5 per lap of fuel loaded.  So if someone wants two more laps that is a second stationary so would add 3 seconds for a stop roughly.  

md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 160 days ago
...and here we are, all over again. Nothing has changed. Why the exit order is not random yet?
md-quotelink
medal 6662 Super Mod
4 years 160 days ago
Exit order ?

I think you misunderstood what the developers made random. They made qualifying running lap order random, so when practice is locked and your cars go to track they can go at any order (before or after everyone else).

By doing that they just wanted to confirm there isn't any track rubbering behaviour going on.
md-quotelink
medal 5003 Super Mod
4 years 160 days ago
If the majority of managers are unhappy with random qualifying, we need the devs to introduce a method to differentiate between the various cars/drivers when it comes to determining grid positions.

Maybe driver attributes are a factor but unless there are hidden attributes it is simply going to be a case of hiring a talent 20 driver and then training them to 20 across the board. Once this has happened we are once again just rolling the dice.

If it's fuel load and tyres, before very long the best managers will have worked out the optimum strategy, other managers will copy this strategy so the majority of cars will qualify on the same tyre compounds and fuel load and... yep, roll the dice again.

So how can we have a qualifying system that rewards better management, because at the end of the day we're all playing a motorsport management game here?

IMO qualifying performance has to be related to something over which the manager has control but can't be seen (and therefore copied) by his/her competitors.

Two things immediately spring to mind and they are linked. Design balance and suppliers. In order to make design balance more influential we need to dramatically reduce the number of dp available to prevent all cars beginning the season with the same design and most teams maxing out design half way through the season. So it surprises me that so many managers believe the current system isn't broken and doesn't need changing... See here

If we reduced design then it also makes those extra few dp from suppliers more important and gives managers the opportunity to tweak the balance from race to race by selecting different suppliers.

By limiting the dp available we give managers a way to directly influence their qualifying and race pace in a way that can't be copied by other managers. The downside... How long before some managers find the magic balance and everyone accuses them of cheating?

One final point, it would also be a good time for the devs to make the cooling and reliability attributes more influential on race pace.

Apologies for me keep banging on about the same thing but I don't see any other relatively simple way of solving this problem.
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 160 days ago (Last edited by Alessandro Bonifacivs 4 years 160 days ago)
Gustavo
Exit order ?

I think you misunderstood what the developers made random. They made qualifying running lap order random, so when practice is locked and your cars go to track they can go at any order (before or after everyone else).

By doing that they just wanted to confirm there isn't any track rubbering behaviour going on.


Sorry Gustavo, but isn't what you are describing an "exit order" from the pit lane? 
I mean the order in which cars exit from the pit lane (out lap) in order to do their quali lap: probably is an incorrect translation but I think we are speaking about the same thing. There was a defined order, now should be random...
And, for what I know, cars are still doing their quali lap in the defined order, not random. As said by Francesco D'Angelo before 
md-quotelink
medal 5000
4 years 160 days ago
Yes, you are saying the same thing. Anyway, I saw in the last races of my last championship that It was always the same id to begin the qualy, exactly as before. 
md-quotelink

You must be logged in to post a reply.