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Open Discussion with the Devs: League system

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medal 6098 CEO & CTO
7 years 78 days ago (edited 7 years 78 days ago)
With the implementation of auto-kick, some league hosts claim it has become tough to keep the higher tiers in a league populated. I had been considering doubling the size of the promotion and relegation zones for a long time, to ensure there are more cars to race against each season, and that the promotion and relegation battle is more exciting. That is one measure that might help, but I don't think it solves everything.

The way some other games address this situation is to have a pyramid structure, with progressively less leagues in each tier, reaching a single pinnacle at the top. That system would not work in iGP Manager as it stands, as unlike the other games, it has fully live racing and real-time strategy. Being able to attend the race is of critical importance and so being able to decide when you race is also critically important.

This thread is for open discussion. It's a place to throw all of the ideas in to the ring and come up with the best solution. Here are a few to begin the discussion, off the top of my head. I haven't given all of the consequences of each idea much thought, but it gets the ball rolling.

  1. 1. Only auto-kick from the Rookie tier - Only auto-kick inactive Rookie accounts, allowing an indefinite period of inactivity in the Pro or Elite tiers to keep them populated. Combined with doubling the size of the promotion and relegation zones this might actually be quite effective, and could be implemented very quickly. The inactive players in Pro and Elite should also naturally fall back to Rookie over time through relegation, and then get removed from the system.

  2. 2. End the current three-tier league, and introduce a handicap system in its place - This would utilise the ballast system. Our intention for the future friendly race system is to use ballast to level performance. Why not do the same for leagues? Tiers could be removed from the picture entirely. While everything would become more casual, it would allow friends of all levels to race together. The league host could change the Handicap setting as a percentage, with 100% aiming to completely level performance from teams of all levels, and 0% not levelling the field at all, resulting in huge discrepancies in performance, but always willingly opted in to by the players and customisable at any time. One major setback to this idea is that there are plenty of active leagues in all three tiers who would probably not welcome it, or being split up. So I don't think this one will work, but it's an idea anyway.

  3. 3. Regional pyramid structure - This would take months to build, and isn't going to solve anything short-term, but an alternative would be to have pyramidal structures of leagues regionally based so that most people can attend the races. To prevent this being to restrictive for players and limiting when they can play, perhaps rather than replacing current leagues, this system could run parallel with them.


If anyone here is familiar with iRacing, I believe they use a flexible version of a pyramid structure where you can join races around the clock and score points. I'd be interested to hear more about that system and whether something similar could work in iGP Manager too.
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medal 5000
7 years 78 days ago
Hi,

1. Seems like a perfect option really. As you say, with larger relegations inactives will fall off pretty quickly.

2. I cant say I would like this to much. I have spent a long time and many others have spent even longer building our teams. If you go 0% handicap people will get bored and leave, if you go 100% handicap I might as well have never played. You could do away with DRS improvements etc. I like that you dont think this will work!

3. I am not sure how to feel on this one as I am not entirely sure on how it would work.


I think option 1, maybe in conjunction with moratorium on penalties for changing leagues (maybe even increase the design points you get slightly for while). Maybe also consider the temp block on the creation of new leagues. This will encourage players to populate existing leagues, make them full and active.

Then when you allow for new leagues to be created it should will hopefully only populate with active players?#

Its a bit of a catch 22, people like the game because you can create your own leagues etc. But with some many new players, and new leagues etc its will be hard to populate them.

Maybe make it so you need to be Pro or Elite to create a league? Or racing for x number of races?
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medal 5000
7 years 78 days ago (edited 7 years 78 days ago)
Ballast system with one tier leagues. Sounds like the simplest way to go, rookie, pro & elite all in one.
We can always change to 1 car league and have 32 players
Keep bottom 4 relegation, well in this case it would be kicked from league zone :P

There is a thought mixed 1 and 2 cars league, rich teams could run two cars and someone that is struggling with money can run 1 car, allowing someone else to jump in and run 1 car.
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medal 5000
7 years 78 days ago
Hall of fame will put everyone into leagues pyramid structure work in connection with the one tier league.
Top 4 get a mail to join a more competitive league that will see them race people around the same rep points
Bottom 4 get a mail to join a less competitive league that will see them race people around the same rep points

Swapping league via the mail doesnt damage car design. Swapping leagues on your own does!
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medal 5000
7 years 78 days ago
Hall of fame
1-32 league 1
33-65 league 2 so on and so on

iGP creates all leagues not users & they are all 1 car leagues, Play against friends in open anytime social races 1 or 2 cars.

Sounds simple enough but how do yous do it? lol
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medal 5000
7 years 78 days ago (edited 7 years 77 days ago)
I think all 3 options are interesting and an hybrid version could be the perfect mix of pros and cons. But I'll need more time before to think a more complex answer, cause there could be endless collateral effects to think about.

For now, I would just ask if you please could at least lock (as fast as possible) the promotions for tiers with less than 50% of players.
It could save at least some leagues, like mine, while we all think about a more stable solution.
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
Thanks for the lock in our league!
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago (edited 7 years 77 days ago)
Una idea.
Ligas pirámides en distintos horarios, ejemplo.
Liga xxx 00:00
Liga xxx 02:00
Liga xxx 04:00...
Cada uno nos podríamos apuntar en la que mejor nos convenga.
Y tener competición amistosas, para poder jugar contra amigos. Ejemplo
Quedada en el foro para el domingo día XX hora XX circuito XX y apuntarnos.

******************
An idea.
Pyramid links at different times, example.
League xx 00:00
League xx 02:00
League xx 04:00 ...
Each of us could point to the one that suits us best.
And have friendly competition, to play against friends. Example
Stay in the forum for Sunday XX day XX XX circuit XX and join us.

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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
I don't know if you would be able to make this work but...

Is there away to let each League owner decide on the promotion and relegations? Like how we have a choice for Race Duration and Race Speed. Have an option of Promotions for Rookie to Pro but not Pro to Elite until they decide they have enough people in Pro.

Same with how many teams get promoted each season. have an option for the league owners of 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, etc. get promoted or relegated every season.

Just a thought.
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
I worry that system 1 would create the fact that all the teams from former Elite would live on the top third of the new league, pro in the middle and rookies on the bottom. This would cause frustration with the new players as they can't compete at the top of a level unless they in a league of other rookies only, but then where is the competition? Current league system supports rookie players to develop into a strong elite player.
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
I prefer option 2 but then again,my league only has 14 teams in Elite and 1 each in Pro and Rookie.But if you do that to other leagues,they might as well join as a new player because with 100% hadicap,it takes away all of the Elite players' progress and have rookies do basically nothing.Option 1 might be good because the inactive players might get down to Rookie from Elite or Pro but the con is that it takes a while to get the inactive players down Rookie tier
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
I like the idea mentioned above, about limiting the ability to start a league to pro or elite, but I think Elite only would be the way to do it.and maybe only after 5 seasons of elite, to allow a league manager to become familiar enough with the game to be an effective manager. Also the option #1 has merit, as it allows for cleaning up of the ghost teams, without it becoming a burden of the league manager. I know of a few that do a regular cleanup of inactive teams, but that adds a lot of extra frustration when you join leagues that are nearly full, and realize that there is only a couple active managers. It also allows us to be absent for a short stretch once we reach elite, say for family vacations, etc.
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
Another thought, the three tier system works, but has the issue of once the elite tiers fill up, the pro and rookie tiers start to dwindle and die off. This leaves a few stuck in rookie and Pro, until they get frustrated at not being able to promote and leave the game.

perhaps there could be a way of running the leagues in a WEC fashion, having three tiers race together but having results for managers level 1 - 6, level 7-13, and level 13-20. This might not be easy to code, I have no idea how the programming works, but it sounds like a nice solution.
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medal 6098 CEO & CTO
7 years 77 days ago
Some interesting ideas.

Maricoco
Una idea.
Pyramid links at different times

That's quite a cool idea, somewhat similar to the iRacing system. However, I think the regional idea proposed in the original post is superior. The reason is that we could base servers in each region for that idea, reducing latency and ensuring the best possible service. Doing it by time alone would not identify a region, and so everyone would be running on servers in different regions and probably getting bad pings (this is a problem within the current system too, and something we were looking to address in future).

Tim
Is there away to let each League owner decide on the promotion and relegations?

I've addressed this idea before, but it would only result in increasingly complex and irritating regulations. While it may seem like a clear and easy solution when thinking about some isolated cases, applied across every league it would be a mess. E.g. Host disables promotion on Pro, enables it on Rookie, Pro tier fills up - now you either have to shut down promotion on rookie mid-season (nobody will like that) or overpopulate Pro and break the game and have over 32 cars on the grid.

Lee
I worry that system 1 would create the fact that all the teams from former Elite would live on the top third of the new league, pro in the middle and rookies on the bottom.

I'm not sure if I understood this, but isn't that pretty much how it works now? Or do you mean Rookie players wouldn't be able to promote past inactive Pro or Elite accounts who would be relegated? I think the point was made above that they would naturally gravitate back down to Rookie due to their inactivity and then be filtered out by auto-kick if it were applied to Rookie only.

Ray
Another thought, the three tier system works, but has the issue of once the elite tiers fill up, the pro and rookie tiers start to dwindle and die off. This leaves a few stuck in rookie and Pro, until they get frustrated at not being able to promote and leave the game.

This sounds similar to what Lee was saying. I'm not following what you guys are referring to. I think maybe I understand what you're both saying - is it that Rookies would never promote because auto-kick would keep de-populating the tier?

Ray
perhaps there could be a way of running the leagues in a WEC fashion, having three tiers race together but having results for managers level 1 - 6, level 7-13, and level 13-20. This might not be easy to code, I have no idea how the programming works, but it sounds like a nice solution.

The purists will never go for that one. A race has to be similar to F1 in the ruleset.
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
I think option 1 is the best for now
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago (edited 7 years 77 days ago)
Ray
Another thought, the three tier system works, but has the issue of once the elite tiers fill up, the pro and rookie tiers start to dwindle and die off. This leaves a few stuck in rookie and Pro, until they get frustrated at not being able to promote and leave the game.

This sounds similar to what Lee was saying. I'm not following what you guys are referring to. I think maybe I understand what you're both saying - is it that Rookies would never promote because auto-kick would keep de-populating the tier?

What I am talking about is when a league gets too a point where there is only 1-4 teams in rookie and/or pro. There is no promotion at that point so they are stuck there.

One of the leagues I'm in now had a very real chance of disappearing as there was nobody joining for quite a while when the new game was launched. The release of the mobile apps filled the rookie and pro tiers, which over a few seasons has populated the elite tier back up to nearly full. but that left rookie and pro filled with inactive teams from players who didn't stick with the game for whatever reasons. I can see us getting back to that point again, as the rookie and pro tiers have emptied out once more.

The pyramid that is mentioned above, would that limit me to only race against other players in western North America, or only North America in general? I like the fact that I've met people through here that live all around the globe, and have really enjoyed getting to know them.

Edit - clarification and grammar
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
First of all we should address the PRIMARY problem of repopulating leagues that were stripped of players due to the autokick feature. This does not require any restructuring of the traditional tier system in IGP. The tier system Has some problems but those should be addressed separately from this problem.

A voluntary merging of leagues would be the simplest solution. Suspending the penalties for switching leagues, both the cash penalties and the car design penalties, would encourage players to switch to other leagues. A mass mail out announcing the temporary suspension of league switching penalties would assure that everyone was informed and would understand the changes that would occur in their team when switching.

The cash penalty could be suspended entirely for one month and the car design could be changed to the same as it would be at the beginning of a new season in an established league. Thus pro design would be set to around 40 per design characteristic and elite design would be set to around 50 per design characteristic.

By this method players that desired to continue racing together could migrate to other leagues without suffering too badly.
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medal 5000
7 years 77 days ago
The bottleneck at the top is the feature of the current tier system that discourages players from continuing with the game once they reach elite level. Thus they either are caught in a continuing cycle of promotion to elite and then relegation to pro or they are stuck with an interminable struggle to surpass higher ranking teams ahead of them, facing what seems like years of playing before their team is strong enough to compete with those players who have been winning one championship after another for 10 to 20 seasons. A super tier at the top would be a solution for this bottleneck. Once promoted to the super tier there would be no relegation. The top players could move freely from one league to another when in the super tier thus providing a path to overall championship events that crown an IGP ultimate champion each year.
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medal 5456
7 years 76 days ago
My thoughts on Jack's proposed systems:
1) I currently like the league system as it currently is, and I think auto-kick is appropriate for all levels. I do like the idea of expanding the number of promoted drivers; I think promoting 3 or 4 would be good (of those options, I would prefer promoting 3, instead of the current 2). I would prefer the league structure remain as it is (with the extra promotions), however, of the ideas Jack proposed, this is my favorite, as it is similar to what I would naturally prefer.

2) I do not want to see all the levels merged together. I have a league that I feel has been fairly successful at recruiting managers, even with our own 7 day kick rule. However, perhaps half of all the drivers that join Rookie try once, and then never play again, which led me to initiate the kick rule in the first place. If all the levels were merged together, the inactive Rookies would be too large a negative, especially at 28 days. Also, since our league is mostly full, merging all tiers together would mean we would have too many managers, and some would be kicked out. That would not be good.

3) I like the idea of a pyramid. However, the con is that I would likely no longer be racing with family or friends that I've made. So, honestly, I prefer to leave it as is.

With that said, I think different change that could improve league activity is improvement to the game's search function, and could be most effective in the long run. I have mentioned my thoughts in detail here: https://igpmanager.com/forum-thread_1/8579#65545

Also, I think the idea of merging leagues together makes sense. However, I do not think this should be done by the developers. I think league hosts should find other leagues via the search, agree to a merger, and managers from one league will manually leave and join the other.

Thanks,
Chris
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medal 5000
7 years 75 days ago
Everyone in my series is running low on money, so we thought it would be awesome to have some kind of preseason prediction on the next champion. Everyone who got it right would get a small financial bonus after the season has ended. Could this be possible in the future?
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