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[ROUNDTABLE] Tyre 'Cliffs' Update

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Luke King
3 years 67 days ago

I've had two races when I've been losing temp before 50%. League is 75% at 2x speed. No refuelling, two tyre rule.

Brazil - 28c. Mediums losing temp around the 60% mark.
Mexico - 19c. Softs losing temp around 60% again.

Push levels would have been fairly consistent throughout the laps at that stage of the stint(s).

Wouldn't say it was a massive drop off in temps, so manageable but definitely wouldn't have happened before the update.

I think the update is interesting. Resets strategies for most tracks - though we still managed to make a 1 stop at Italy work like before.

Initial reaction was that the update had gone too much the other way, but its the same for everyone so not really a big deal.

Bud Oil
3 years 67 days ago (Last edited by Bud Oil 3 years 67 days ago)

I increased TE to about 80 points and I have the same wear of the other teams who have not added any points. On the last version it was cool having TE because it was enough passing from 30% to 33% (1 more lap). Now it's impossible to pass from 50% to 54%. Tell me how is it possible?

As winter is come how we expect to play SS at 5°C in USA or Hungary pitting every lap? As the S is 5 level push all the lap and after 75% S become cold? I would know who thought this s*it. The previous system was good. It would have been enough increasing the tyre wear for compound. This is my last message about. Bye

Dario Jp
3 years 67 days ago

Martha-Mary

OK this is how I see it so far

We've done 3 races, 100% distance and no refueling.

First race-Mexico 14 degrees (dry)

Our leading team failed to finish the race due to temperature drop off being ridiculous at around 70% (remaining) and needing to increase push level.

The team second in the championship switched to SS to try and limit the damage and limped across the line in 3rd/4th they also experienced similar issues.

Second race-Brazil can't remember temp (wet)

No real issues here but teams complained it was impossible to know fuel loads from practice results and what push level would be required

Third race-China 33 degrees (dry)

Again leading teams complained it was impossible to guess fuel load and they overfilled again. Soft and medium tyres behaved sensibly with temp drop off but it was 33 degrees, I didn't use them but hard tyres seemed to be useless as they cooled way too quickly.

In conclusion

In a 100% league we're now making too many pit stops and it's mainly guess work with fuel loads, I'm personally worried that as the autumn and winter months approach European races we'll be making even more due to the experience in Mexico.

I'm assuming all our teams tyre economy stat is low at the moment I'm only at 17 points, but if someone could confirm this makes a difference to tyre temperature (not wear) it would be appreciated as this could be an easy fix?

I'd also like to add that two of our top three teams are now taking a break from iGP manager as they are not happy with the changes this seems a bit knee jerk to me but that's their choice. However, I can see me making a similar decision if winter races always echo the issues we saw at the Mexican race. Which was farcical

How are you guessing fuel loads? Can you not use simple math?

Michael Craig
3 years 67 days ago

Dario do you primarily play refuelling or no refuelling? Going back to a previous one of your questions as well some of the variance you see in feedback could be due to differences between the two formats.

It’s a little more tricky for no refuelling and there’s a benefit to being lighter over the course of a race so you want to cut it fine. But if you cut it too fine you end up retiring.

With tyres requiring more push levels safety margins have changed for a no refuelling race. And are harder to predict going into an unknown situation right now but that will stabilise.

@Bud I’m not sure I understand your comment?

From my experience of the previous tyre format you couldn’t even overtake a set of older tyres with a 20-30% advantage of if you were stuck in a DRS train with similar fuel levels. But you are saying 3% used to make a difference for you? Or am I misunderstanding?

In general I agree with the concerns that colder weather is going to become problematic and that further work is required. But I still view this update as an improvement on the previous format by a significant margin.

Bud Oil
3 years 67 days ago (Last edited by Bud Oil 3 years 67 days ago)

Michael

Dario do you primarily play refuelling or no refuelling? Going back to a previous one of your questions as well some of the variance you see in feedback could be due to differences between the two formats.

It’s a little more tricky for no refuelling and there’s a benefit to being lighter over the course of a race so you want to cut it fine. But if you cut it too fine you end up retiring.

With tyres requiring more push levels safety margins have changed for a no refuelling race. And are harder to predict going into an unknown situation right now but that will stabilise.

@Bud I’m not sure I understand your comment?

From my experience of the previous tyre format you couldn’t even overtake a set of older tyres with a 20-30% advantage of if you were stuck in a DRS train with similar fuel levels. But you are saying 3% used to make a difference for you? Or am I misunderstanding?

In general I agree with the concerns that colder weather is going to become problematic and that further work is required. But I still view this update as an improvement on the previous format by a significant margin.

Yes, just having 3% more than my competitors usually gave me benefits. I could make overtakes without boost, or make my stints shorter or longer of 1 lap. Now seems.TE is useless because I am 75 DP in TE and after that I confronted with my mates and there are no benefits. But it's logical. Passing from 50% to 54% means you can pass from 30% to 40% in proportion. And I don't know if in the previous system it would be possible even if you would have put 200 DP in TE.

I think that this update is too much drastic. Devs' aim should be make different strategies balanced. Now there is only a way to make a stint. Old tyre wear was very good one or two years ago don't remember when exactly. Now you have to pit only in one determined lap to make the right call or you lose. I can't imagine in 1 car leagues. How f*** is supposed to work this system in winter where in Hungary S is PL5 all the time?

Dario Jp
3 years 67 days ago

Oh I've not tried no refueling I don't like the sound of it, I assumed the game gave you enough fuel to finish the race, it's a bit weird that you can run out of fuel on a no refueling race.. ?

Dario Jp
3 years 67 days ago (Last edited by Dario Jp 3 years 67 days ago)

Archie

Dario

Oh I've not tried no refueling I don't like the sound of it, I assumed the game gave you enough fuel to finish the race, it's a bit weird that you can run out of fuel on a no refueling race.. ?

Why be so sarcastic when you've not tried it to have accurate knowledge?

This feedback thread is meant for constructive criticism.

Who would have ever guessed you have to manage fuel on a no refueling race ... So I naturally assumed you were racing with refueling. It's a very good assumption to think you do not need to worry about fuel..
For constructive critism and what I think should change is the SS tyres, maybe add a little bit more durability so they can last a couple more laps. This is for refueling and 100% distance.

Skid Solo
3 years 67 days ago (Last edited by Skid Solo 3 years 67 days ago)

Dario

Archie

Dario

Oh I've not tried no refueling I don't like the sound of it, I assumed the game gave you enough fuel to finish the race, it's a bit weird that you can run out of fuel on a no refueling race.. ?

Why be so sarcastic when you've not tried it to have accurate knowledge?

This feedback thread is meant for constructive criticism.

Who would have ever guessed you have to manage fuel on a no refueling race ... So I naturally assumed you were racing with refueling. It's a very good assumption to think you do not need to worry about fuel..
For constructive critism and what I think should change is the SS tyres, maybe add a little bit more durability so they can last a couple more laps. This is for no refueling 100% distance.

Technically you didn’t need to manage fuel as game suggests a fuel load however it has a massive safety margin built in (for 75% it is >10 litres so you would seriously uncompetitive (especially as its simple to work out fuel needs taking into account likely push level behaviour).

The issues occurring in no refuelling races since the update are just an example of no adjustments to strategy to take into account new tyre behaviour.

Michael Craig
3 years 67 days ago

Who would have ever guessed you have to manage fuel on a no refueling race ... So I naturally assumed you were racing with refueling. It's a very good assumption to think you do not need to worry about fuel..
For constructive critism and what I think should change is the SS tyres, maybe add a little bit more durability so they can last a couple more laps. This is for no refueling 100% distance.

I assume you mean refuelling 100%? Either that or you have successfully bamboozled me.

As others say the game gives you a default fuel load but it’s conservative. You can make a lot of time up by adjusting it. But it’s not as simple as taking your fuel rate and multiplying it by laps which will get you through most refueling races.

I agree that right now the life on SS is a bit short. It’s even worse in no refuelling as well, you don’t get a fuel weight offset to help you travel faster there.

Dario Jp
3 years 67 days ago

Michael

Who would have ever guessed you have to manage fuel on a no refueling race ... So I naturally assumed you were racing with refueling. It's a very good assumption to think you do not need to worry about fuel..
For constructive critism and what I think should change is the SS tyres, maybe add a little bit more durability so they can last a couple more laps. This is for no refueling 100% distance.

I assume you mean refuelling 100%? Either that or you have successfully bamboozled me.

As others say the game gives you a default fuel load but it’s conservative. You can make a lot of time up by adjusting it. But it’s not as simple as taking your fuel rate and multiplying it by laps which will get you through most refueling races.

I agree that right now the life on SS is a bit short. It’s even worse in no refuelling as well, you don’t get a fuel weight offset to help you travel faster there.

Yeah I'm an idiot, I apologize I did mean refueling lol

Martha-Mary Sprandelli-Sprout
3 years 67 days ago

@Dario, well I did start my post saying no refueling

Anyway I think we're getting side tracked with my guess fuel comment. In essence you can just add a bit more to cover it but the "bit more" is hard to judge at the moment until players learn tyre behaviours in certain conditions.

My main concern is that come winter it'll be 5+ stop races on push level 5 just to keep heat in the tyres. If you're racing at 100% distance.

Let's see how it goes, I hope I'm wrong

John Doe
3 years 67 days ago

Come on gents !!!
This forum is to comment about the new tires "cliffs"

Let's FOCUS on that, please !!!
Thanks in advance !!! ?

Sneaky Snake
3 years 67 days ago (Last edited by Sneaky Snake 3 years 67 days ago)

The biggest problem so far I think is that on some circuits the operating window of the tyre is the same for S, M and H, you can't take them farther than lap 12-13 laps. The harder compounds may have less tyre wear, but they start to get colder much earlier to the point of no return no matter how much you push. And well, Supersofts are useless espessially in the no refueling league. We'll run the full season I think and I'll have a conclussion, but so far the the only tyre to use is Mediums, maybe sometimes Softs for the first stint, but that's it. I do like the new undercut tho, really makes a difference, and sometimes makes it worth to take that risk. Also all the tyres getting colder with wear happened in 25°c-30°c heat I can't imagine what it's going to look like in the winter months

Bud Oil
3 years 66 days ago

Tyler

Michael

Could you share a bit more information about this Tyler? The situation's you are describing just don't fit with anything i'm seeing so far and i'm curious.

Would be good if you could share the link to the race / race's that you have had. And what the temperature was as well if you remember it.

Idk how to share race links, but I've done a full live race at Japan, a few offline races, and some test races for offline to test push levels (both 100% leagues if that makes a difference). It's all the same as what Mustrum is saying as well. It was a bit of a challenge to see how much fuel you could save (if any), now you basically know how much you have to put in. I kept reading "realism" being stated with the falloff and strategies, but I'm just not seeing it

And apologies if I came off a bit harsh earlier. I'm just not seeing why this was made this way. At some tracks the overcut was better, and others the undercut was better. Some were good with both, just depended on who you were with, if with anyone. Now it's all undercut. And also some partial bias as I was finally getting the hang of offline racing lol

I can't stop saying Tyler is right... There is no more chance. Only a way to perform a stint. I am curious to see 5 pit stop strategy in Hungary at 5°C ... Yesterday I tried SS in Malesia... Lasted 2 laps.... You deleted a compound

John Doe
3 years 66 days ago

USA will be the next GP
DP tires from 74 to 193 have No change at all to improve compounds
SS 8% / S 5% / M 4% / H 3%

DP tires after 74 is useless !!! ?

Again, the % tires wear need changes as well to balance the "cliff" !!!
Am I wrong ???

Ángel Piret González
3 years 66 days ago

RACER

USA will be the next GP
DP tires from 74 to 193 have No change at all to improve compounds
SS 8% / S 5% / M 4% / H 3%

DP tires after 74 is useless !!! ?

Again, the % tires wear need changes as well to balance the "cliff" !!!
Am I wrong ???

What do you mean by "DP" and "74 to 193"?

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
3 years 66 days ago

He's talking about the number of Design Points (DP) assigned to the Tyre Economy attribute.

The suggestion being that once you hit 74 there is nothing to be gained by assigning more of your valuable design points to this attribute.

Alessandro Bonifacivs
3 years 66 days ago

Bello iGP.

Kevin Bissell Super Mod
3 years 66 days ago

Dario

No refueling in my league and the update is perfect, it's the cry babies who dominate that don't like the change. Please don't revert it back

Just to say it is not within the power of any volunteer to revert it back and in any case I agree, I don't think the Devs should revert.

My personal opinions after a week of new tyre characteristics:

I don't think the rebalance necessarily improved the game, it's just made it different. It mixed things up for a few races and allowed people to pull off a few surprise wins but very soon the hardcore managers have worked out the new optimum strategy and the status quo is restored, the managers who dominated before the update will once again dominate after the update.

From what I experienced so far I'm not convinced the update has allowed alternative strategies to be viable. After a few seasons the best strategies will be known and more often than not it will be a copy/paste of the previous season's winning strategy at the same race. It's not the fault of the update, this has always been the case and will remain so until someone can make the tyre wear and grip MUCH more sensitive to ambient temperature. If this could be achieved then races at different times of the day at the same circuit would require different strategies and there would be strategy variation across the year as temperatures change.

I don't think that 100% races should require so many pit stops, mainly because it is counter intuitive to newcomers to the game. This was already an issue before the update but the update has often added another pit stop to a strategy that already required too many.

Making TE development more effective at the higher ranges would give people something to take into consideration when developing their cars.

I share other people's concerns about the Medium and Hard compounds as winter approaches. They will become unusable at low temperatures and feel this is something that needs to be addressed with some urgency.

I race 1 team in 100% / Offline / 1-car / Refuelling allowed league and another team in 75% / Online / 2-car / No refuelling league and it is clear that different approaches are required for these two dissimilar formats.

If people really want to mix things up it seems to me that this can be done by the league host alternating each season:

race distance

number of races per season (different design development path)

refuelling on-off

tyre rule on-off.

This would provide a large number of permutations that can't be achieved with a fixed set of tyre characteristics.

Just my opinion, nothing to do with being a Mod and is not necessarily the views of other volunteers or the IGP Staff.

John Doe
3 years 66 days ago

RACER

USA will be the next GP
DP tires from 74 to 193 have No change at all to improve compounds
SS 8% / S 5% / M 4% / H 3%

DP tires after 74 is useless !!! ?

Again, the % tires wear need changes as well to balance the "cliff" !!!
Am I wrong ???

And cooling from 4 to 50 in a rookie league, there is no improvement.

@iGP please focus on these absurd things!

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